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 Post Post subject: Biblical Conundrum
Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:19 am 
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Read this verse. Now read it again. It talks about God imparting a revelation to Jesus Christ. This brings up an interesting, and quite possibly unfathomable question: While the Trinity, consisting of God the Father, God the Son (As manifested in Jesus Christ), and God the Spirit (As manifested in the Holy Spirit, the Comforter) does exist in one person and three persons simultaneously, (Note: If you do not share this belief, talk about it in this thread. I'd love to hear different points of view on this.) is it possible for one of these Persons to have information or knowledge that another does not, and how is this possible? What does John mean?

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 Post Post subject: Re: Biblical Conundrum
Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:15 am 
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I believe so, but not because of this verse.

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 Post Post subject: Re: Biblical Conundrum
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:36 am 
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I don't think the emphasis is on the Father revealing something to the Son, but rather the Father giving something to the Son to reveal to the churches. Each member of the Trinity is omniscient, and there is nothing that one of them knows that the others do not know. Now, the case people always bring up is Jesus saying that He didn't know the time of His own return. At that time, He was one being with two natures--human and divine. His human nature could only gain unhuman knowledge when the divine nature chose to reveal it. At this time, the divine nature did not choose to reveal the time of His return to Him. But, I believe, He does know now, as a glorified human (yet still the Son of God), when He will return to take His church.

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 Post Post subject: Re: Biblical Conundrum
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:13 am 
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The belief that Christ human nature didn't have all the knowledge of His divine nature because the divine nature hid it from Him denies the hypostatic union between the two. Hypostatic meaning they are of the same essence and not two separate essences able to hide things from each other.


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 Post Post subject: Re: Biblical Conundrum
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:44 pm 
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I suppose that you could make that argument, but can you give any other explanation for that particular instance where the second person of the Trinity doesn't seem to be omniscient? The explanation I gave is one that I've heard from many learned theologians.

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"Jesus is far greater a Savior than you are a sinner." — Steve Camp
"The Christian life is not a piece of heaven on earth, / but bless God! we get the peace of heaven on earth! / ... Some say God doesn't want you to suffer, but where they saw that?/ We don't pray for a lighter cross, but a stronger back!" — KB, "Brand New"
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 Post Post subject: Re: Biblical Conundrum
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:51 pm 
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I don't see why this is saying Christ didn't know everything, I could give you a file with the formula 1+1 = 2 to give to someone else but that doesn't mean you didn't know that 1+1 = 2. What theologians made your argument?


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 Post Post subject: Re: Biblical Conundrum
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:07 pm 
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No, no, no. I think you misunderstood me.

I totally agree with you that this verse does not support that Jesus, in His human nature, was not all-knowing. I was basing my argument on the verse where Jesus says that He doesn't know when the Father will send Him down to Earth to gather His Church.

So, I still hold to that position, but I agree that the verse Monty gave does not imply that at all.

As for what theologians I've heard give the view about Jesus' divine nature choosing when to inform His human nature, I think of people like R.C. Sproul and John Macarthur, for sure. I've probably heard it from other places too, but those are the main ones I can think of. I know you don't typically agree with them on much. ;)

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"Jesus is far greater a Savior than you are a sinner." — Steve Camp
"The Christian life is not a piece of heaven on earth, / but bless God! we get the peace of heaven on earth! / ... Some say God doesn't want you to suffer, but where they saw that?/ We don't pray for a lighter cross, but a stronger back!" — KB, "Brand New"
"When you heard a story 'bout da Hero dying for da villain?" — Andy Mineo, "One Sixteen"


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 Post Post subject: Re: Biblical Conundrum
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:03 pm 
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So what verse does imply that Jesus in His human nature wasn't all knowing? i.e. Not a member of the Godhead i.e. Not fully God i.e Saint Nicholas would like a word with you and Arius :P

No I don't usually agree with them, especially when they deny the nature of Christ but I disagree with anyone when they do that.


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 Post Post subject: Re: Biblical Conundrum
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:17 pm 
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I'm not sure what you mean by denying the nature of Christ, but okay...

The verse, I referred to quite specifically, but here's the actual text:



There's also the verse about Jesus growing in wisdom and stature. How could He "grow" in wisdom unless He started out with a limited amount, in His human nature? Now, don't misquote me. I'm not saying that He wasn't all the while omniscient in His divine nature. I'm just saying that that didn't show through in His human nature. But the natures at the same time weren't divided in any way, but perfectly united. The hypostatic union is a great mystery, just like the Trinity.

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"Jesus is far greater a Savior than you are a sinner." — Steve Camp
"The Christian life is not a piece of heaven on earth, / but bless God! we get the peace of heaven on earth! / ... Some say God doesn't want you to suffer, but where they saw that?/ We don't pray for a lighter cross, but a stronger back!" — KB, "Brand New"
"When you heard a story 'bout da Hero dying for da villain?" — Andy Mineo, "One Sixteen"


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 Post Post subject: Re: Biblical Conundrum
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:30 pm 
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I'd just be appealing to tradition in how to interpret this verse which I know you won't agree with, suffice to say I think you actually are creating a divide in the two natures of Christ by saying this. Yes it is a great mystery, which is why I think using one verse to build such a complex theology on the natures of Christ, that is counter to the traditional understanding of the nature of Christ, is unwise.

I think the idea of growing in wisdom means He was emptying Himself and assuming human nature not a human who was given a divine nature that kept things from the human nature.


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 Post Post subject: Re: Biblical Conundrum
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:35 pm 
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Ugh. I wrote out a long reply, and when I hit "Submit," the Internet went out and what I wrote was erased. :| Here's what I said in a nutshell:

Yes, I think you're right, I wouldn't have been thrilled with your appeal to tradition. Thank you for respecting that. :)

I can assure you, I am not an Arian; I have full belief and trust in the Jesus of the Scriptures, Who was and is fully God and fully man: two natures in one person. Human nature and divine nature, not mixed, confused, or confounded. I don't think it creates a divide to say that one of the natures did not have the capacity to possess certain divine attributes like omniscience. In fact, I believe that if He was, then we would potentially be able to be omniscient someday when we reach Heaven, which I don't believe will ever happen.

But anyway. The hypostatic union is a great mystery, just like the Trinity. I won't claim that I even begin to understand all of the ins and outs and ups and downs of all of it. But I trust the Bible. And what I believe, I have seen in its pages. I don't think that what I've told you contradicts anything else I read in them.

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"Jesus is far greater a Savior than you are a sinner." — Steve Camp
"The Christian life is not a piece of heaven on earth, / but bless God! we get the peace of heaven on earth! / ... Some say God doesn't want you to suffer, but where they saw that?/ We don't pray for a lighter cross, but a stronger back!" — KB, "Brand New"
"When you heard a story 'bout da Hero dying for da villain?" — Andy Mineo, "One Sixteen"


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 Post Post subject: Re: Biblical Conundrum
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:03 pm 
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I have no doubt it doesn't contradict your interpretation of what you've read. But that's really the problem isn't it? The nature of Christ isn't exactly spelled out in precise details in Scripture and if it's up to the individual why do you recoil at the thought of being Arius? Why is his interpretation less valid than St. Nicholas?


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 Post Post subject: Re: Biblical Conundrum
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:40 pm 
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I'm actually personally not familiar with the position of St. Nicholas on the issue. But I would say that I know Arius was wrong because he did contradict clear teachings of Scripture. I'm fine with a view that can be reconciled with all the verses in Scripture that speak to the issue. And it would seem that yours is that way, and very near mine, so I don't have a problem with that. But Arius was undoubtedly in conflict with Scripture.

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"Jesus is far greater a Savior than you are a sinner." — Steve Camp
"The Christian life is not a piece of heaven on earth, / but bless God! we get the peace of heaven on earth! / ... Some say God doesn't want you to suffer, but where they saw that?/ We don't pray for a lighter cross, but a stronger back!" — KB, "Brand New"
"When you heard a story 'bout da Hero dying for da villain?" — Andy Mineo, "One Sixteen"


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 Post Post subject: Re: Biblical Conundrum
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:50 pm 
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So we're both right about the nature of Christ?

And St. Nicholas' position was that of the rest of the Council that Christ had two natures in hypostatic union that they were undivided and that one having knowledge the other didn't would be a division.


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 Post Post subject: Re: Biblical Conundrum
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:31 am 
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I didn't say that we're both right; I just said that your view is close enough to mine that I don't believe it is heretical. I just don't agree with you that one having infinite knowledge and the other having finite knowledge divides the natures. In the same way, the human nature had only finite presence, while the divine nature maintained its omnipresence. How does that not divide the natures?

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"Jesus is far greater a Savior than you are a sinner." — Steve Camp
"The Christian life is not a piece of heaven on earth, / but bless God! we get the peace of heaven on earth! / ... Some say God doesn't want you to suffer, but where they saw that?/ We don't pray for a lighter cross, but a stronger back!" — KB, "Brand New"
"When you heard a story 'bout da Hero dying for da villain?" — Andy Mineo, "One Sixteen"


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 Post Post subject: Re: Biblical Conundrum
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:57 am 
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I think we'll just have to agree to disagree because I would just appeal back to the original Council to define what undivided nature means and you're just appealing to your interpretation so there isn't any common ground to discuss this on.


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 Post Post subject: Re: Biblical Conundrum
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:59 pm 
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As usual. :P Sounds good to me. ;)

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"Jesus is far greater a Savior than you are a sinner." — Steve Camp
"The Christian life is not a piece of heaven on earth, / but bless God! we get the peace of heaven on earth! / ... Some say God doesn't want you to suffer, but where they saw that?/ We don't pray for a lighter cross, but a stronger back!" — KB, "Brand New"
"When you heard a story 'bout da Hero dying for da villain?" — Andy Mineo, "One Sixteen"


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