Nomic

The game of rules, backstabbing, and a race to victory!

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Monty
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Nomic

Post by Monty »

Proposed: that we start a version of Nomic on the ToO! For those who are interested, the rules are here: http://jergames.blogspot.com/2007/02/no ... r-own.html.
The person who wrote the Nomic rules wrote:Immutable Rules

101. All players must always abide by all the rules then in effect, in the form in which they are then in effect. The rules in the Initial Set are in effect whenever a game begins. The Initial Set consists of Rules 101-116 (immutable) and 201-213 (mutable).

102. Initially rules in the 100's are immutable and rules in the 200's are mutable. Rules subsequently enacted or transmuted (that is, changed from immutable to mutable or vice versa) may be immutable or mutable regardless of their numbers, and rules in the Initial Set may be transmuted regardless of their numbers.

103. A rule-change is any of the following: (1) the enactment, repeal, or amendment of a mutable rule; (2) the enactment, repeal, or amendment of an amendment of a mutable rule; or (3) the transmutation of an immutable rule into a mutable rule or vice versa.

(Note: This definition implies that, at least initially, all new rules are mutable; immutable rules, as long as they are immutable, may not be amended or repealed; mutable rules, as long as they are mutable, may be amended or repealed; any rule of any status may be transmuted; no rule is absolutely immune to change.)

104. All rule-changes proposed in the proper way shall be voted on. They will be adopted if and only if they receive the required number of votes.

105. Every player is an eligible voter. Every eligible voter must participate in every vote on rule-changes.

106. All proposed rule-changes shall be written down before they are voted on. If they are adopted, they shall guide play in the form in which they were voted on.

107. No rule-change may take effect earlier than the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it, even if its wording explicitly states otherwise. No rule-change may have retroactive application.

108. Each proposed rule-change shall be given a number for reference. The numbers shall begin with 301, and each rule-change proposed in the proper way shall receive the next successive integer, whether or not the proposal is adopted.

If a rule is repealed and reenacted, it receives the number of the proposal to reenact it. If a rule is amended or transmuted, it receives the number of the proposal to amend or transmute it. If an amendment is amended or repealed, the entire rule of which it is a part receives the number of the proposal to amend or repeal the amendment.

109. Rule-changes that transmute immutable rules into mutable rules may be adopted if and only if the vote is unanimous among the eligible voters. Transmutation shall not be implied, but must be stated explicitly in a proposal to take effect.

110. In a conflict between a mutable and an immutable rule, the immutable rule takes precedence and the mutable rule shall be entirely void. For the purposes of this rule a proposal to transmute an immutable rule does not "conflict" with that immutable rule.

111. If a rule-change as proposed is unclear, ambiguous, paradoxical, or destructive of play, or if it arguably consists of two or more rule-changes compounded or is an amendment that makes no difference, or if it is otherwise of questionable value, then the other players may suggest amendments or argue against the proposal before the vote. A reasonable time must be allowed for this debate. The proponent decides the final form in which the proposal is to be voted on and, unless the Judge has been asked to do so, also decides the time to end debate and vote.

112. The state of affairs that constitutes winning may not be altered from achieving n points to any other state of affairs. The magnitude of n and the means of earning points may be changed, and rules that establish a winner when play cannot continue may be enacted and (while they are mutable) be amended or repealed.

113. A player always has the option to forfeit the game rather than continue to play or incur a game penalty. No penalty worse than losing, in the judgment of the player to incur it, may be imposed.

114. There must always be at least one mutable rule. The adoption of rule-changes must never become completely impermissible.

115. Rule-changes that affect rules needed to allow or apply rule-changes are as permissible as other rule-changes. Even rule-changes that amend or repeal their own authority are permissible. No rule-change or type of move is impermissible solely on account of the self-reference or self-application of a rule.

116. Whatever is not prohibited or regulated by a rule is permitted and unregulated, with the sole exception of changing the rules, which is permitted only when a rule or set of rules explicitly or implicitly permits it.

Mutable Rules

201. Players shall alternate in clockwise order, taking one whole turn apiece. Turns may not be skipped or passed, and parts of turns may not be omitted. All players begin with zero points.

In mail and computer games, players shall alternate in alphabetical order by surname.

202. One turn consists of two parts in this order: (1) proposing one rule-change and having it voted on, and (2) throwing one die once and adding the number of points on its face to one's score.

In mail and computer games, instead of throwing a die, players subtract 291 from the ordinal number of their proposal and multiply the result by the fraction of favorable votes it received, rounded to the nearest integer. (This yields a number between 0 and 10 for the first player, with the upper limit increasing by one each turn; more points are awarded for more popular proposals.)

203. A rule-change is adopted if and only if the vote is "Aye" by a majority of the eligible voters. If the vote is a tie, the first person to post after the last vote is cast will decide whether the proposal passes or fails.

204. If and when rule-changes can be adopted without unanimity, the players who vote against winning proposals shall receive 10 points each.

205. An adopted rule-change takes full effect at the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it.

206. When a proposed rule-change is defeated, the player who proposed it loses 10 points.

207. Each player always has exactly one vote.

208. The winner is the first player to achieve 100 (positive) points.

In mail and computer games, the winner is the first player to achieve 200 (positive) points.

209. At no time may there be more than 25 mutable rules.

210. Players may not conspire or consult on the making of future rule-changes unless they are team-mates.

The first paragraph of this rule does not apply to games by mail or computer.

211. If two or more mutable rules conflict with one another, or if two or more immutable rules conflict with one another, then the rule with the lowest ordinal number takes precedence.

If at least one of the rules in conflict explicitly says of itself that it defers to another rule (or type of rule) or takes precedence over another rule (or type of rule), then such provisions shall supersede the numerical method for determining precedence.

If two or more rules claim to take precedence over one another or to defer to one another, then the numerical method again governs.

212. If players disagree about the legality of a move or the interpretation or application of a rule, then the player preceding the one moving is to be the Judge and decide the question. Disagreement for the purposes of this rule may be created by the insistence of any player. This process is called invoking Judgment.

When Judgment has been invoked, the next player may not begin his or her turn without the consent of a majority of the other players.

The Judge's Judgment may be overruled only by a unanimous vote of the other players taken before the next turn is begun. If a Judge's Judgment is overruled, then the player preceding the Judge in the playing order becomes the new Judge for the question, and so on, except that no player is to be Judge during his or her own turn or during the turn of a team-mate.

Unless a Judge is overruled, one Judge settles all questions arising from the game until the next turn is begun, including questions as to his or her own legitimacy and jurisdiction as Judge.

New Judges are not bound by the decisions of old Judges. New Judges may, however, settle only those questions on which the players currently disagree and that affect the completion of the turn in which Judgment was invoked. All decisions by Judges shall be in accordance with all the rules then in effect; but when the rules are silent, inconsistent, or unclear on the point at issue, then the Judge shall consider game-custom and the spirit of the game before applying other standards.

213. If the rules are changed so that further play is impossible, or if the legality of a move cannot be determined with finality, or if by the Judge's best reasoning, not overruled, a move appears equally legal and illegal, then the first player unable to complete a turn is the winner.

This rule takes precedence over every other rule determining the winner.
Anyway, that's basically how to play, with lots of rule changes and rule repeals along the way. I will begin accepting sign-ups...now. I want to have at least three people join before we begin.
Last edited by Monty on Tue May 17, 2011 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ric
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Post by ric »

That looks very interesting. :yes:

I'll have to read through the rules sometime.
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Post by Monty »

OK. Anyone else?
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Post by minichef »

I do not like to follow, nor do I like to make rules. I do not like to make rules, because this gives me power. Sometimes a little too much power. Giving me power is not a wise choice for ANYONE!! I act very blonde, so picture a blonde running something big! Like... The entire world! Talk about massive chaos! And i do not like to follow the rules, for the obvious reasons of being a teenager and not wanting to do anything exactly like you are supposed to do them. I like to mix it up a little. I usually get everything done though... Eventually. This game is an exception to both my dislikes, because it is hypethetical power, so for the answer of the question given, I will play.
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Post by Moontide »

I will play, I have been wanting to play for a long time, and I think I know what I want to do on my first turn. Make a proposal that removes turns. :yes:
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Post by ric »

I think I'll make a proposal to redefine 'rules'. \:D/
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Post by Monty »

Ok. Let's begin.
People playing
Me
Moontide
Ric
Minichef


Ric has made a proposal to redefine rules. As this does not amend, repeal, or otherwise change a rule, I am going to make the assumption that Ric wants to make rule 301 as follows:

Anyone using the word "rule" while posting in this thread, or while in a private message to another player while discuusing this game, will lose 5 points.


Is that right, Ric?
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Post by ric »

Um, sure. \:D/

We have to vote, correct? I vote aye.
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Post by Monty »

OK. Voting will commence now. I will vote for the affirmative on proposal 301.

Aye!
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Post by ric »

I have a questions. 104 refers to the proper way of proposing a rule, and the required number of votes. What is the proper way of proposing a rule, and what is the required number of votes? Does the judge decide on that?

Also, should we allow the members to object/debate before we commence with the voting?
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Post by Moontide »

The required number of votes is in rule 203. As for the proper way to propose a rule, we need a new rule to decide that, I think, because it is never said how-to in the rule book.

I vote nay on the current proposal.

So now all we need to do is wait for Minichef to vote. \:D/
Last edited by Moontide on Thu May 12, 2011 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by ric »

Darn it, we were supposed to do turns in alphabetical order (201). Does someone want to invoke judgement, or something? (rule 212)
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Post by Monty »

I don't think we need a rule to decide how to propose a rule because rule 103 mentions the word "enactment."

Alphabetical order doesn't apply unless everyone wants to share their surnames.

As of right now, it doesn't matter what Minichef votes since you voted "No", Moontide.

As of right now the number of votes required is four. The person who goes next, (typically the alphabetical order rule is abolished, especially on forums) can amend that rule whenever we go.

If you guys don't object, we can go:
Ric
Moontide
Minichef
Me.

Only because you guys already have ideas about what you want to do for your turn.
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Post by ric »

No, I have to do part 2 of 202 now. And for us to know how many votes I had in favor, we have to wait for minichef to vote on my proposal.
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Post by Moontide »

monty wrote: Alphabetical order doesn't apply unless everyone wants to share their surnames.
I disagree. We would go in Alphabetical order by our Nicks. Also the rule doesn't say who should start, just that we should go in Alphabetical order. So We would go in this order:
Ric - starts
-it loops-
Minichef
montywhittakerIII
Moontide

So Minichef goes next.
monty wrote:As of right now, it doesn't matter what Minichef votes since you voted "No", Moontide.
But Rule 105. says: "Every player is an eligible voter. Every eligible voter must participate in every vote on rule-changes." So even though it doesn't matter we still have to do it.
monty wrote:As of right now the number of votes required is four. The person who goes next, (typically the alphabetical order rule is abolished, especially on forums) can amend that rule whenever we go.
Then we should abolish via voting on the proposal. And rule 1 says: All players must always abide by all the rules then in effect, in the form in which they are then in effect. The rules in the Initial Set are in effect whenever a game begins. The Initial Set consists of Rules 101-116 (immutable) and 201-213 (mutable).
Last edited by Moontide on Thu May 12, 2011 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by ric »

Moontide wrote:
monty wrote:As of right now, it doesn't matter what Minichef votes since you voted "No", Moontide.
But Rule 105. says: "Every player is an eligible voter. Every eligible voter must participate in every vote on rule-changes." So even though it doesn't matter we still have to do it.
Yes, and we need everyone to vote in order to comply with part 2 of my turn (see 202).
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Post by minichef »

On the current proposal, I vote nay.

And yes, my vote matters if yours does! And yours does! So I matter!
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Post by Moontide »

So the proposal fails. with a vote of 2 ayes and 2 nays. (4 ayes needed)

Ric gets:
(301-291)*.5 = 5 points (someone should check my math to see if it is true)
He loses:
10 points per rule 206

So he has a total of -5 points.

Points for each player:
Ric:-5
Moontide:0
Minichef:0
Me:0

I think it is now minichef's turn.
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Post by ric »

Yup, you're correct.

So, minichef, you make a proposal.
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Post by minichef »

K. I think we should Ammend section 204. I think we should increase the ammount to 15 points.

Did I do that right?
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