Bookworm And Kings Daughter Beat-Down Fight Day 2013

[The Kings Daughter]

because gangs are associated with many negative influences and incidents that young adults do not need to be involved with when starting to try and find their place in the world.

Simply because people 'associate' gangs with negative 'influences and incidents' you would have young people not try a group? Perhaps since people associate women with kitchens, every girl should stay away from all else but a kitchen. As for finding their place in the world, what is to say that place isn't in a gang? Perhaps your place is next to a guy in black scaling the roof of a nearby store.

[bookworm]

Simply because people 'associate' gangs with negative 'influences and incidents' you would have young people not try a group?

That would be a valid point, if the association were something that may or may not be factual. But in this case, gangs are associated with negative things because they do negative things. That’s just the way it is, it’s not a matter of opinion.

Joining a gang would ... give you a fighting spirit to not blend in with the world.

On the contrary, gangs encourage blending in and suppress individuality. Gang members must conform to the gang lifestyle, even down to wearing gang colors.

Gangs have many things to grow you in skills. For example a common one, graffiti art

Which is a form of vandalism. If you want to grow your artistic skills there are legal ways to do it.

[The Kings Daughter]

Simply because people 'associate' gangs with negative 'influences and incidents' you would have young people not try a group?

That would be a valid point, if the association were something that may or may not be factual. But in this case, gangs are associated with negative things because they do negative things. That’s just the way it is, it’s not a matter of opinion.

Some do. But you can't put them all in a group of doing 'negative things'.

Joining a gang would ... give you a fighting spirit to not blend in with the world.

On the contrary, gangs encourage blending in and suppress individuality. Gang members must conform to the gang lifestyle, even down to wearing gang colors.

But gangs do not represent the world. They have their own methods of preforming things.

Gangs have many things to grow you in skills. For example a common one, graffiti art

Which is a form of vandalism. If you want to grow your artistic skills there are legal ways to do it.

I didn't say it was on public property, now, did I?

[bookworm]

gangs are associated with negative things because they do negative things. That’s just the way it is, it’s not a matter of opinion.

Some do. But you can't put them all in a group of doing 'negative things'.

But I can. I have not heard a single instance of a street gang that wasn’t involved in the negative activates gangs are generally associated with, so until I do inductive reasoning says that all gangs are.

Joining a gang would ... give you a fighting spirit to not blend in with the world.

On the contrary, gangs encourage blending in and suppress individuality. Gang members must conform to the gang lifestyle, even down to wearing gang colors.

But gangs do not represent the world. They have their own methods of preforming things.

So what you’re saying is that blending in is okay, as long as it’s with something other than ‘the world’? That doesn’t make much sense to me. Blending in with a gang should be as bad as blending in with anything else if you’re encouraging individual expression.

Gangs have many things to grow you in skills. For example a common one, graffiti art

Which is a form of vandalism. If you want to grow your artistic skills there are legal ways to do it.

I didn't say it was on public property, now, did I?

You didn’t say it wasn’t, and much of it is. If you want to limit it to legal graffiti, then I concede that it can have positive merit as a form of expression. However, one does not have to be in a gang to engage in graffiti, there are art groups that do it as community events, and it can even be done individually. So this doesn’t really support being in a gang. Legitimizing one aspect of a gang does not legitimize the overall experience.

[Knight Fisher]

Ding! TKD was more... convincing. I'll give her the point.

Topic 2: (This topic has been modified from it's original form to fit the correct procedure.)

Mercy is better than Marvin.

Bookworm will support.

[bookworm]

I assume we’re referring to the ToO member Musical Shutterbug, and not mercy the virtue.
Musical Shutterbug is better than Marvin because she has an infectiously pleasant persona. Though I know nothing about her personally, just from interacting with her online I can tell she is a warm and kind person.

[The Kings Daughter]

O.O

Mercymine, you've forced me to have to do this. Don't let this effect the letter you owe me.

Mercy is better than Marvin because she is amazing? That's illogical. :spock: And even if those were the terms, Marvin has a kind and easy going personality, topped with a sense of humor (making him equally amazing). Having met him, I can say that he is very polite (this is going to kill me) along with being friendly.

[bookworm]

Mercy is better than Marvin because she is amazing?

I didn’t use those terms. Amazing is subjective.

Marvin has a kind and easy going personality, topped with a sense of humor (making him equally amazing).

IDance also has a sense of humor, so yes they are equal in the aspects mentioned so far. What I would say gives her the edge is that as I said she has a great attitude, and I have never seen her deviate from it. Even when she’s not necessarily in the best mood, she still manages to be friendly. Marvin on the other hand can be somewhat curt at times.

[The Kings Daughter]

Mercy is better than Marvin because she is amazing?

I didn’t use those terms. Amazing is subjective.

My apologies for not terming that correctly.

Marvin has a kind and easy going personality, topped with a sense of humor (making him equally amazing).

IDance also has a sense of humor, so yes they are equal in the aspects mentioned so far. What I would say gives her the edge is that as I said she has a great attitude, and I have never seen her deviate from it. Even when she’s not necessarily in the best mood, she still manages to be friendly. Marvin on the other hand can be somewhat curt at times.

I cannot argue by trying to bring up weaknesses counts for each person. If that pretty much means we can go no further, than you may take it as so.

I also am curious about which type of 'better' we are amazing. Better in what? And if in all areas, what happened to "All men are created equal"?

[bookworm]

Now that you mention it you’re right, 'better' itself is also subjective.
Both IDance and Marvin are certainly wonderful people (they are actually two of my favorite ToOers, making this an interesting debate to have) so in finding criteria to put one above the other I think it all comes down to subjective distinctions.
Also note that my statement about Marvin was not intended to be a weakness. Curtness is not weakness, I get curt with people myself at times. I was only using it as one of the aforementioned subjective comparisons, in that I have yet to see IDance be curt, so if constantly pleasantness was one of your criteria for comparison then that would be one that could go in her favor.

[The Kings Daughter]

Now that you mention it you’re right, 'better' itself is also subjective.
Both IDance and Marvin are certainly wonderful people (they are actually two of my favorite ToOers, making this an interesting debate to have) so in finding criteria to put one above the other I think it all comes down to subjective distinctions.

Also note that my statement about Marvin was not intended to be a weakness. Curtness is not weakness, I get curt with people myself at times. I was only using it as one of the aforementioned subjective comparisons, in that I have yet to see IDance be curt, so if constantly pleasantness was one of your criteria for comparison then that would be one that could go in her favor.

Ah, my fault for misinterpretation. Pleasantness is indeed something to go in her favor, just as be a caring person is in Marvin's favor. However, if we are going to tally up all their good traits, we could be here a while. And even then we would miss some, so the count would be completely inaccurate.
The point is that they (we! ) are equally 'marked' as sinners, and all bought with the same price. Also, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" - Gal. 3:28

[bookworm]

Indeed. They are both great people and any favor of one over the other would just be a matter of personal preference. May I suggest a joint concession on this topic?

[The Kings Daughter]

Indeed. They are both great people and any favor of one over the other would just be a matter of personal preference. May I suggest a joint concession on this topic?

I think that would be a good end to this debate subject.:

[Knight Fisher]

*munches peanut butter cookies*

Very well then. Ding! Stalemate.

Topic 3:

Adventures in Odyssey should feature a homosexual character.

Bookworm will support.

[bookworm]

Adventures in Odyssey should feature a homosexual character because it would allow them to teach how to treat such a person with the love and understanding Christians should, instead of the bigotry and hate that is too prevalent in the world.

[The Kings Daughter]

Adventures in Odyssey should not have a homosexual character, because that is not a topic to introduce to children at a young age. Just like Adventures in Odyssey doesn't have kid at school who does drugs. Odyssey is a clean environment in which to learn foundational lessons, and should not risk exposing kids to things they are not ready for at their point in life.

[bookworm]

Odyssey is a clean environment in which to learn foundational lessons, and should not risk exposing kids to things they are not ready for at their point in life.

And loving everyone as Jesus does is a foundational lesson. How do you know they aren’t ready? That decision should be up to the child’s parents. If they don’t think they are ready yet, or they would rather personally handle the subject than let AIO, they can keep their child from listening to that particular episode.

[The Kings Daughter]

Odyssey is a clean environment in which to learn foundational lessons, and should not risk exposing kids to things they are not ready for at their point in life.

And loving everyone as Jesus does is a foundational lesson.

For sure. However, there are some...problems, you just don't expose kids until they are a great deal older. It is possible to learn how to love everyone Jesus does and not go into all the lifestyles of those people He does love.

How do you know they aren’t ready? That decision should be up to the child’s parents. If they don’t think they are ready yet, or they would rather personally handle the subject than let AIO, they can keep their child from listening to that particular episode.

How do you know they have? The decision should definitely be up to the child's parents. But there is only so much protecting you can do without totally isolating yourself from civilization. Also, I would guess based on what happened with my family and with friend's families, that parents don't usually hear the program at the same time as their children, much less beforehand! Side point, if it was an AIO 'character', there is a possibility that that character would appear a little bit or a lot in multiple episodes. I think AIO is better to continue teaching the love and way of our Savior in, as I said before, a clean environment.

[bookworm]

But Adventures in Odyssey is expert in tastefully presenting different situations to kids, that’s the whole purpose of the show. So if they chose to deal with this kind of issue I’m sure it would be done in the same careful way as any other is. And if the parent is okay with that, then they can choose to use it as part of their child’s education. And if they aren’t, then they can choose not to. But to just not even consider the possibility, it deprives the parent who would accept it of any chance of doing so, while the parent who wouldn’t is no better off. They wouldn’t let their child listen to it anyway, so not making it doesn’t gain them anything.

[The Kings Daughter]

But Adventures in Odyssey is expert in tastefully presenting different situations to kids, that’s the whole purpose of the show. So if they chose to deal with this kind of issue I’m sure it would be done in the same careful way as any other is.

Some situations, yes. Age appropriate ones. Ones that are right for the whole family, youngest member included. From your point of view, does that also mean that AIO should educate kids on how drugs work, too?

And if they aren’t, then they can choose not to.

As I said, some children hear the episodes before their parents (because their parents know it will be clean, for one thing), so this would not be possible.

But to just not even consider the possibility, it deprives the parent who would accept it of any chance of doing so, while the parent who wouldn’t is no better off.

They are better off, for above mentioned reasons. If Focus feels that they need to provide a tool in helping explain homosexuality to kids, then they may create one. But to do so on a children's program may do more harm than good.