one of the strictest universities EVER

[One I Froggy]

While I dont really agree with most of the rules, and I wouldnt choose to go to either of them, I just was wondering....How would they know if you watched a PG movie while you were on christmas break? And how would they know if you listened to MWS? Im not saying that the rules should deliberatly be broken, but I dont think they are gonna put cameras in your room. PLus, I think they have better things to worry about then what you do on vacation.

Also, People who attend those schools know full well before they go what will be expected of them. One example... my english class volunteers at a nursing home once a month. My teacher told us at the beginging of the yr that the girls absolutely with out a doubt have to wear a skirt, no pants. But he also gave the choice that if you didnt want to volunteer, you could write a research paper instead. So, I had to make the choice to either write the paper, or wear the skirt. I have no problem with wearing skirts or dresses. But I do find it sexist to say that in order for women to look dressed up we have to be wearing skirts. In the end, I choice to wear the skirt and volunteer. But I made that choice with both eyes open and I knew my options. I think the students at these schools have made the same choice.

[Eugene Blackgaard]

Hmm... remember what happened when the Jews starting making man-made rules?

[The Top Crusader]

While I dont really agree with most of the rules, and I wouldnt choose to go to either of them, I just was wondering....How would they know if you watched a PG movie while you were on christmas break? And how would they know if you listened to MWS? Im not saying that the rules should deliberatly be broken, but I dont think they are gonna put cameras in your room. PLus, I think they have better things to worry about then what you do on vacation.

They don't have cameras in the rooms, but they regularly search them, and confiscate whatever is "illegal" and give you demerits or whatever. A friend of mine that went there managed to hide his CDs, but a few of them rented a movie once that was rated over G, and just about got expelled over the ordeal.

Although, it is hard to spy on you on vacation, at least...

[Eugene Blackgaard]

It just seems anyone graduating from that place is going to hit the real world and be totally unable to function in society, although that could just be my flesh talking, who knows it could be a good thing.

Christians are called to be set apart, but there are lines we shouldn't crosson both sides.

[Sarah]

While I dont really agree with most of the rules, and I wouldnt choose to go to either of them, I just was wondering....How would they know if you watched a PG movie while you were on christmas break? And how would they know if you listened to MWS? Im not saying that the rules should deliberatly be broken, but I dont think they are gonna put cameras in your room. PLus, I think they have better things to worry about then what you do on vacation.

They don't have cameras in the rooms, but they regularly search them, and confiscate whatever is "illegal" and give you demerits or whatever. A friend of mine that went there managed to hide his CDs, but a few of them rented a movie once that was rated over G, and just about got expelled over the ordeal.

Although, it is hard to spy on you on vacation, at least...

I'm pretty sure that the rules said you could not watch anything above a G rating in one of the nearby houses. *shrug*

I think...

Sarah

[gimp80995]

I think some of those rules are rediculous. I don't know about those two schools, but someone i know went to a school that was considered to be really strict, and when she got there things weren't as bad as they seemed to be on paper, and things were a little more lenient. But come on, no pants in the dorm room??

I for one can see the purpose behind such strict rules.........but taking away CCM?!? No pants even in the dorm room!?! I could see it if we were back in the old days or if any of those students would go into a lifestyle where they wouldn't wear pants after college.........I can agree with no jeans though (sorta). Although I did it in Jr. High years.......I became best friends w/ another AIO fan in a few of my classes. She was Penticostal, wore dresses down to her ankles and had her hair braided..........well I'm always one to root for the underdog...........I figured out real quick that if I joined up with her, I'd be one of only four students in our school who dressed like that..........for a year and a half (even after school and on weekends) I wore dresses / skirts.........and I actually enjoyed it. Though, when we moved away and I started at a new school.........I dunno......about then I didn't really want to be a loaner, so I went back to wearing pants.

You guys think that's strict? Military (basic training) life isn't any eaiser, yet thousands of thousands of thousands (OK, you get the idea) of people join the military KNOWING what they will face for the first 6-8 weeks.

I think one of the reasons the schools are so strict is they want students who are serious about learning..........I mean if you / your family is really willing enough to go there dispite all the rules / dress codes, etc, chances are you're a person who wants to be focused on academics, not dating, or music etc.

I don't think people who "couldn't handle" BJU's or other school's rules / regulations are any less Christain than those who could live by such with no problems at all (I would say that as I'm one of them ). Just different people / lifestyles.

As far as a comment regarding teaching (the teacher wouldn't take questions)..........BIG DEAL! You're going to find a prof like that at almost any school you attend. It's called that particular teacher doesn't want to actually teach you, they just want to tell you what pages in the book to read, then grade your work.

Those are just some of my thoughts at this time.

Peace Out

-Gimp

[Jonathan]

I can see why they ban rock (though I hate it! ) , but M W. Smith!!!!???? That's just plain dumb and crazy!

Two quick things; please do not double post, and we debate under the pretense that we will do so with a respectable manner.

I've only skimmed the posts and the rules, but I already feel the writing bug. First:

I disagree. It's not horrible as so many people make it out to be. My brother went there for his pre-med degree and my aunt is a teacher there. Sure, they have standards, and everyone looking at going there knows that. If they can't abide by those rules they can go somewhere else. But plenty of people appreciate their standards and like going to BJU.

And we do have plenty of common sense, by the way.

"Strictness" is in the eye of the beholder. That is, "strict" is one of the most relative terms in the English language.

A rule that one person may call "strict" another may call "loose." Reality tells us that across the wide spectrum of Christianity, there are many different levels of standards and rules. I for one think that BJU is quite loose in some areas--particularly Pre-Marital Divorce Training Exercises, a.k.a. dating.

I believe Paul addresses this issue in Romans 14. Back then, instead of CCM, skirts, and movie ratings, they dealt with eating meat and observing special feast days. Paul says (NASB): "Let not him who eats regard with contempt him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats, for God has accepted him."

Some issues are grey areas, and some are not. I think Paul is calling Christians--from BJU to Pensecola, to us individually--to not excessively quibble over standards, but rather examine our convictions (or lack of them) before God, and see if they are Scriptural.

In response to your posts Watson and Laura, I can appreciate your thinking and those who manage to put up with that for four years. I also agree that those going are aware and prepared for it, at least most of them. However (and secondly):

It just seems anyone graduating from that place is going to hit the real world and be totally unable to function in society, although that could just be my flesh talking, who knows it could be a good thing.

Christians are called to be set apart, but there are lines we shouldn't crosson both sides.

I agree, in a way. For instance, there was a family mine was friends with when I was quite young. I have very fond and cherished memories of spending time with them and playing with thier boys, especially their oldest, as he was the same age as me.

However, the time soon came when my parents had to make a decision: should I go to private school, public school, or home school? They prayed on it for quite a while, and after taking a good hard look at the prospective choices, (including the public school with a largely Christian faculty) they decided to enroll me in the public school system. This family (who went to our church) disapproved, and gradually severed the relationship. While I don't remember, this according to Dad greatly upset me, b/c I wanted to play with my friends. This in turn upset him. My Mom recently consoled him by saying she would've done the same thing, as she didn't approve of the way they were raising their kids.

Those kids went through home school. The oldest is now my age, and isn't even allowed to choose which college he wants to go to or his career. At 18, his parents (particularly his Dad) are still making his decisions.

Like EB said, I expect those kids to be utterly shell-shocked when they reach the real world. It doesn't help that the parents moved the family to a ranch in the middle of nowheresMinnesota.

All this to say, the point EB had was a valid one. While it isn't nearly as extreme as the case I presented, I do imagine some of these kids will experience a level of culture shock, right where they grew up.

As for his comments on being set apart, I don't believe this means we shouldn't completly seperate ourselves from society or our culture. Rather, we as Christians are too live lives, publicly, that the world can easily identify as 'different' because the path we are on is radically different then any the world has.

Thirdly, regarding music:

Same here. I like music that is a lot more like rock than Michael W. Smith's is. Now I know what two colledges I'm definatly not going to..

This is another issue I find rather important, and in the case of these two schools, disturbing.

At the church I grew up in, the same family I mentioned above, along with a number of other families, decided to make an issue about some of the music we used in worship. I believe their stance was only hymns should be used. This literally divided the church. One time they openly criticized an elder (who had helped establish the church) because he had clapped in a syncopated beat. He didn't even know what a syncopated beat was. There was another time we had a guist guitarist, and several families walked out and left during the service b/c they didn't like his music.

The issue continued to grow until the Pastor (who agreed with one side, though I don't know which) finally got up and said this needed to stop.

A few weeks later several families announced they were leaving our already small church.

From there attendance dropped for several more years.

That particular church is now gone, disbanded in 2002, ultimately killed because of an arguement over music.

These two schools have taken a similar stance:

* New Age, jazz, rock, and country music is not permitted.
* Contemporary Christian music is not permitted (e.g., Michael W. Smith, Stephen Curtis Chapman, WOW Worship, and so forth).

I find that thinking dangerous, and it is, as I've proven with my story. My stance is, "If it glorifies God, why condemn it?" Show me a verse that says only hymns should be used, that only one form of music is acceptable. I'll bet there isn't a person who could, as there is none. Sure, I do find some of comtempary Christian's music wrong, but only the songs that are scriptually unsound or more focused on man.

Fourth, regarding the other rules:

It should be noted that at any time, the administration (or students authorized by the administration) may go through your room, unannounced, looking for anything unauthorized. Legally or not, this will include opening drawers and going through paperwork. You may or may not be present, and you may or may not be notified.

Women are not allowed to hold off campus jobs. (All school jobs during the year pay minimum wage or below)

Each gender must use segregated stairways, elevators and in some cases, sidewalks.

possession of standard playing cards

a male should never see you swimming

Now while they do have rules I agree with, the ones I posted (and caught my eye) are either absurd or border on illegal, which they admit in one of them. Like the music, this goes too far in my opinion.

Illegal, for ex: below minimum wage and those searches, which they can do illegally

Absurd: no playing cards? Segregated sidewalks?

Now I know they have a rule against gambling, and I certainly agree. But no playing cards? If you don't gamble and just play for fun, there are a lot of fun games (and for the record I have five decks in my dorm room and many more at home).

Now like I said, kudos to those who can deal with that. And the people looking at the school are most likely aware of what they're in for. However, there are rules I strongly disagree with.

I apologize for the very long post, but you all gave me alot to think about.

-Jonathan

[DanP740]

OMGOSH! OMGOSH!! OMGOSH!!!!

NOTHING above a G rating!!!! Even when they're at a friends house!!!?? They can't even watch the Incredibles!!! And NO theatre!???!!!! I would never go there!!! And if I had no choice, I would die!

But, hmm, how do they know if you've watched The Incredibles? Do they have surveliince cameras?

[Me]

The only way I can think of that someone could find out would be if someone talked.

While some of the rules presented may be well founded, I also believe that they go too far. In fact, I was seriously considering PCC for a short while, until I found out about their dress code. That did it for me.

Other than that, I noticed in some of the rules that while New Age, Rock, etc, may be outlawed, I see no mention of Blues, Rap, Hip-Hop, Emo, Ska, etc. Naturally, some of these are sub-genres covered by Rock, etc, but is everything not classical considered New Age, do they not prohibit the other types? I'm rather confused on this point.

I also find the illegality (or near illegality) of some of these rules to be inapropriate. As Christians, are we not supposed to submit to the governing authorities, unless they want us to do something that is clearly not Christian? What about the right to privacy? The only way I can think of that the college could get around this is if they had each new student sign a waiver which certified that by coming to the University, they would agree to sacrifice some of their basic rights, much like a EULA.

I may have more thoughts on this later, but that's all for now.

[Jonathan]

I also find the illegality (or near illegality) of some of these rules to be inapropriate. As Christians, are we not supposed to submit to the governing authorities, unless they want us to do something that is clearly not Christian? What about the right to privacy? The only way I can think of that the college could get around this is if they had each new student sign a waiver which certified that by coming to the University, they would agree to sacrifice some of their basic rights, much like a EULA.

That's kinda what I was getting at, but by that point in my post I was tired of typing and didn't really get into that much.

-Jonathan

[The Top Crusader]

The only way I can think of that someone could find out would be if someone talked.

That's another thing. My friend that went to Bob Jones was about to be expelled due to that... actually I think it was the video rental thing I mentioned earlier. They had like 3 or 4 to a dorm, and one of his roommates rated a film that wasn't "G", so they "questioned" all of them and strongly pressured them to talk and say who did it. He said it was basically like police interrogations you see on TV.

[Dr. Watson]

First of all, I would like to say that some really good questions have been posed in this thread. Here are some of my thoughts, answers, and responses.

It just seems anyone graduating from that place is going to hit the real world and be totally unable to function in society

First of all, I would like to address this point. From what I can gather from that statement--and Jonathan’s elaboration—is that kids in “strict” (an as yet undefined term) households cannot function in real world society because they can’t make decisions by themselves—their parents tell them what to do or heavily influence their decisions. I think this reasoning is faulty, for the following reasons:

1) The “real world” is full of rules. Childhood is a mere training ground for adulthood. If a child is subjected to few rules or restrictions, he is going to be the one unprepared for the real world. Speed limits, traffic signs, vehicle inspections, federal taxes, state taxes, campaign finance law, corporate dress codes, corporate policies, business contracts, drivers’ licenses, electrical codes, and infinite other examples are all types of rules. Are they “strict”? Most of us would say no. What about a person from a 3rd world Asian country where traffic laws are virtually nil? He would probably say they are strict. When a Westerner goes to a foreign country where such laws are absent—he will be shocked. He will also probably try to drive the speed limit and obey what Western laws have been ingrained in his mind. Does this mean that he is unprepared for the real world? Does this mean he can’t make liberated decisions because he’s been brainwashed by strict rules? This is a bit rambling, I know, but the principle is there: Rules are everywhere; those who have more “strict” parents may be better prepared.

Culture shock is an overblown myth. I’ve heard about alleged culture shock a lot, mainly because I’ve been homechooled. People assume that if you are homeschooled, it’s somehow culture shock to go into a conventional public setting. However, I believe just the opposite. I reiterate: the rules of homeschooling prepared me very well me for college.

2) Secondly, kids are like sponges; they soak up whatever they come into contact with. The thought that if parents aren’t strict, kids “can make their own decisions”, is slightly absurd. Why? Because kids will automatically pick up other “rules” elsewhere. If parents don’t communicate their values, standards, etc. the child will get them somewhere else—school teachers, friends, “cool” people—and act according to those values. There is no difference ‘twixt a kid making a decision based on strict rules and a kid making a decision based on the loose rules of his peers.

There is a balance. I think that parents, as their sons and daughters grow older, should gradually allow them to make decisions. This of course demands the prerequisite that they strongly instill their Scriptural convictions in their children during their formative years. Parents who completely monopolize their kid’s decision and burden them with excessive rules (what is the interpretation of monopolize and excessive though?) are wrong. However, parents that are laissez-faire and let their kids do whatever they want are equally wrong.

Cheerio

[JesusFreak777]

I find this whole dicussion fascinating. One thing that was touched on but not really discussed was the fact that many students do in fact choose to go to these schools. Most of them know full well wha the regulations are and follow them. A good friend of mine would agree with the statement abou music. She listens to non Christian music but her church says that all Christian rock and roll, like mainstream, is from the devil. "it can't be Chrisitan if it's rock."

find that thinking dangerous, and it is, as I've proven with my story. My stance is, "If it glorifies God, why condemn it?" Show me a verse that says only hymns should be used, that only one form of music is acceptable. I'll bet there isn't a person who could, as there is none. Sure, I do find some of comtempary Christian's music wrong, but only the songs that are scriptually unsound or more focused on man.

Just look at David and Michal (is that how you spell her name?) He was dancing and singing and praising God to the point of losing his clothes. His wife Michal condemned him and the lord made her barren because of it.
more to come later.

[Jeremy]

Hmm... remember what happened when the Jews starting making man-made rules?

Yes. This is my biggest problem with all of these "rules" and "(ill?)legalism." It is unScriptural. On non-moral issues, things that aren't addressed by the Bible, there is to be Christian liberty (this is the whole point of Romans 14 and Colossians 2).

God's Word says, "See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ." "If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 'Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!'
22(which all refer to things destined to perish with use)--in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence." (Colossians 2:8, 20-23 NASB.)

Jeremy

[rosiebelle]

sheesh, I have a lot to say too.

For one thing, you can't judge a school by it's rules. There were some rules I thought rediculous about a school "no peircings besides earings, no ripped clothing, no jeans to the sunday meal, etc" and I got all frustrated and maddened. But visiting, it was perfectly fine. I didn't feel inferior for what I wore, and people dressed normally. Those rules were to weed out the abnormal ones, not the average ones, I guess. Anyway, I suppose a college with a lot of rules could be legalistic, but you don't know till you've been there.

As far as not being able to handle the rules, I know what you guys mean. But some people could do just fine! Some people couldn't care less about movies, believe it or not. Some people just live completely different lifestyles, and it seems BJU wants them. When I tell some people that my friend is a Nun, they say "I'd go crazy!" But it's actually the perfect lifestyle for this friend. And despite some misconceptions, they aren't stifled and bored to death. They play music, dance, and even watch LOTR!! And some people actually LIKE cooking and sewing habits and opening mail and whatnot!! HAH. So YOU wouldn't live, but some people would look really cute jogging around a courtyard with cute tiny black shoes and habit trailing behind!!

I think that if a person is willing to submit to the rules, whether it changes their lifestyle or not, go for it! Sometimes the absence of earthly pleasures brings about spiritual ones, which make tv watching and rock music completely obsolete. I don't think anyone should be forced to go to a school like that though. How can you submit to rules you haven't decided to submit to?

Also the racial thing... this might be rumor, but I think they've totally changed since then. Different people in charge, and whatnot.


After taking a closer look:
"Keep in mind that obeying the student handbook can never make you spiritual. Only the Spirit of God can produce spiritual fruit in a life. Laws can regulate, but they cannot regenerate or sanctify a soul." And the rest is pretty profound, too. That almost makes me want to go there. Imagine a place where all distractions and worldly things are cut out... wouldn't it be such an awesome place to focus on heavenly things? No such place exists, of course, but it looks like they're making an attempt. Yall remember when Eugene went to that monestary? What's good about a place like that? You become free from distractions to focus on God. The five minutes most of us give every night is such a tiny drop compared to what God wants for us. So what's wrong with a place that takes a step further to that? Getting rid of distractions and all? And most tempations too, I imagine.

OK, I'm done ranting. Thanks for your patience. (unless you skipped to this line, are currently pulling out your hair, or are resisting crashing your monitor to pieces by a mere thread of sanity)

[Jessicado]

AUGH!!! Having to wear nylons everyday except for when wearing shorts?!?!?!!?!?

[Jonathan]

Welcome RosieBelle!

Some people couldn't care less about movies, believe it or not.

lol, I can believe it, as I'm one of them.

First of all, I would like to address this point. From what I can gather from that statement--and Jonathan’s elaboration—is that kids in “strict” (an as yet undefined term) households cannot function in real world society because they can’t make decisions by themselves—their parents tell them what to do or heavily influence their decisions.

Well, the case I presented was an extreme one, but unfortunately true.

If a child is subjected to few rules or restrictions, he is going to be the one unprepared for the real world.

While this is true, the extreme opposite can also cause problems for the person in question, as the case I presented suggests.

Culture shock is an overblown myth. I’ve heard about alleged culture shock a lot, mainly because I’ve been homechooled. People assume that if you are homeschooled, it’s somehow culture shock to go into a conventional public setting. However, I believe just the opposite. I reiterate: the rules of homeschooling prepared me very well me for college.

Just for the record, I didn't say anything against homeschooling. I know many many people who have done it, and turned out just fine.

There is a balance. I think that parents, as their sons and daughters grow older, should gradually allow them to make decisions. This of course demands the prerequisite that they strongly instill their Scriptural convictions in their children during their formative years. Parents who completely monopolize their kid’s decision and burden them with excessive rules (what is the interpretation of monopolize and excessive though?) are wrong. However, parents that are laissez-faire and let their kids do whatever they want are equally wrong.

Couldn't have said it better myself

And just for the record, while I was talking about rules I was focused on PCC, not BJU.

-Jonathan

[dancer02248]

well, about the whole 'how are they going to know what you do' comment, i think that the colleges figure that if someone wanted to go to their college, that they will follow the rules for the most part. They inform you of what it's like before, and if you think that college is right for you, then you will mostly abide by the rules. And my guess is that it's mostly based on the honors system, and room checks.

[rosiebelle]

I agree Jessicado. The nylon thing is the only rule I find completely and utterly wrong and evil.

About culture shock: I think certain people are prone to it and certain people aren't. Certain curcumstances can make it worse for certain people, but I think it has more to do with ones mental and emotional stability. That's not to say people from absurdly authoritarian families will come out unscathed.

[chexfan2000]

Oy! No Incredibles?! No Star Wars? No Spiderman?! NO Lord of the Rings?!!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Nope. Not goin there. Can't stand four years without my Tolkien/Jackson fix!