Mafia Round Eight (MAFIA WIN)

Evil has struck the ToO--whodunnit? Roleplay ToO Mafia and find out!

Re: Mafia Round Eight (Day Three)

Postby Astronomer » Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:18 pm

"Church, technically even if bookworm is mafia, you won't be avenging one of those that was responsible for Rad's death. The reason: if bookworm was the traitor (which is the assumption) then he was still town at the point of Rad's death. Also, he was still town at the point of JCGJ's death. Therefore, the only one that he truly killed (hypothetically) out of knowledge would be KF."
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Re: Mafia Round Eight (Day Three)

Postby bookworm » Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:14 pm

“church, once more you’re attempting to make a complex situation black and white by inserting confusing all or nothing statements. Several of which are highly inaccurate I might add.
I’ve already said all of this before, but you’ve either missed it or are purposefully ignoring/twisting it, so I’ll do it again.”
Bookworm fully believed that JC was the best person to lynch because JC said he would burn some toothpicks if he were mafia.
“Is that supposed to be a big revelation? I fail to see why this statement is significant as everyone should have already known that. Yes I believed he was the best person to lynch, and I clearly explained why, multiple times. He was acting suspicious, and unable to provide a credible explanation when confronted about it. As for the toothpicks, that part is irrelevant. As other people have pointed out, there is no reason to take anyone’s word about anything in these games.”
Bookworm believed that not revealing the investigation results the first day was in the best interest of the town
“Again, please enlighten me on how stating things people already know is proof of my guilt. Yes at that time I believed keeping the information secret was best for the Town, and once again I clearly explained why. Are you just skimming past my posts or what?”
Bookworm beleived it was in the best interest of the town to vote for someone he didn't think was mafia (me)
“Alright, now I know you’re purposefully misrepresenting my actions. I just said why I did that, you couldn’t have forgotten already. No, I don’t think you’re Mafia. (At least I didn’t until this absurd push you’re now making.) But that’s not why I voted for you. As I clearly said at the time, and will now repeat, that was not necessarily my final vote based on all evidence. The day was young, I wasn’t ready to accuse anyone, that was a placeholder vote to ensure that things stayed tied while more evidence came to light and was sorted out.”
Last edited by bookworm on Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mafia Round Eight (Day Three)

Postby church » Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:37 pm

"
As for the toothpicks, that part is irrelevant.


You're right, that was moontide. For some reason I mix you two up from time to time. You voted for JC because he voted for moontide, which basically makes me think you were protecting moontide. Of course, you've agreed that either you or moontide should be dead, but haven't attempted to explore why. But thanks for bringing it up, because I found this little gem from max.

but church remember Rad could have investigated bookworm which is what i would do if i were the inspector


Very interesting peice. If I were deflecting from revealing the results this is neither a good argument, nor something I would think anyone would say if I knew who a mafia was.


Now, on to your other arguements. Which I'm enjoying because at this point confusing the situation is just digging yourself deeper into a hole.

please enlighten me on how stating things people already know is proof of my guilt.


Please explain to me how anything anyone here can say is something that no one else knows unless they are the cop? Of course whatever I say is going to be things people already know. So why would you point out something irrelevant in your defense?

Yes at that time I believed keeping the information secret was best for the Town, and once again I clearly explained why.


Let's examine it then. You didn't even refer to it the first day, which suggests you were quite happy with killing JC without giving the idea of revealing the result any real debate first, otherwise I'm certain you would have responded in some way to it. Are you really someone who would shy away from a discussion about soemthing that could benefit or hurt (in your opinion) the town that much?

Your reasoning for not wanting it revealed.

It’s possible they can still do their own investigation as well.


By definition, the recieving cop, can only recieve. There's no way around that.

However, if they come out, remember that it will also be outing another player - the person that was investigated. If that person was a power role, then they would become the target.


There is the very obvious solution of just saying the person is a townie if they had a power role. With all the thought you put into it over the day and night, why didn't you come up with that on your own?

That's it. That's your reasoning for not wanting it revealed.

“Alright, now I know you’re purposefully misrepresenting my actions. I just said why I did that, you couldn’t have forgotten already. No, I don’t think you’re Mafia. (At least I didn’t until this absurd push you’re now making.) But that’s not why I voted for you. As I clearly said at the time, and will now repeat, that was not necessarily my final vote based on all evidence. The day was young, I wasn’t ready to accuse anyone, that was a placeholder vote to ensure that things stayed tied while more evidence came to light and was sorted out.”


So was I right or wrong in saying you thought it was in the best interest of the town to vote for someone you didn't think was mafia? I really can't tell. If so, how can it ever be in the best interest of the town to vote for someone you think is innocent? Oh that's right, for balance. Although you never explained how that balance is a good thing. At best, we just start fighting over which townie to kill, at worst... well, it's the same thing.

If you don't think it's the best thing for the town why would you do something that isn't in the best interest of the town?

And why didn't you change your vote? It's late in the day. You now think I'm mafia because I think you are? Of course... that would be the real reason you voted for KF isn't it? After all, you voted for him immediately after he voted for you. In fact, you very much seemed to favor killing Woody right up until KF voted for you. You didn't even acknowledge him until he voted for you.

More importantly, I'm pointing out how incredibly unlikely you're innocent. All those things must be true for you to be innocent. If even 1 isn't, you'd be guilty. You only even tried to dispute 3 of them."

Church cast a glance at Astronemer before fixing his gaze on bookworm.

"I actually think it's more likely bookworm started out as mafia. 3 times as likely since there were at least 3 male mafia at the start and only 1 mafia traitor. Even if he was the mafia traitor does that make him less guilty? Me thinks not. He willingly joined the people who killed rad. He glady killed with them. And he betrayed us! I say that's worse than being mafia!"
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Re: Mafia Round Eight (Day Three)

Postby Vic » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:35 pm

Astronomer wrote:"Church, technically even if bookworm is mafia, you won't be avenging one of those that was responsible for Rad's death. The reason: if bookworm was the traitor (which is the assumption) then he was still town at the point of Rad's death. Also, he was still town at the point of JCGJ's death. Therefore, the only one that he truly killed (hypothetically) out of knowledge would be KF."


If Bookworm is mafia, why would he be mafia traitor? What evidence do you have to make that point?
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Re: Mafia Round Eight (Day Three)

Postby The Doctor » Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:33 pm

I don't know about Astronomer, but the reason that I believe he could be the Mafia Traitor is because the traitor was attacked the night after the Jailkeeper was killed. Most Mafia would jump at the chance to kill bookworm if the Doc(or in this case, Jailkeeper) is dead.
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Re: Mafia Round Eight (Day Three)

Postby Astronomer » Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:33 am

"Yes, I thought that was the reason bookworm was assumed Mafia. In church's instance, I was wrong, I see. I still think Max is the one at fault here. Bookworm did some things which ended up foolish, but I remember during some of my games where it was blind and I ended up killing townies by accident. Most of this is blind luck, but I think that Max is more likely mafia than bookworm."
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Re: Mafia Round Eight (Day Three)

Postby Monty » Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:34 pm

The town, or at least part of it, debated for what seemed like days. Finally, though, a verdict was decided.

Church-->bookworm (1)
Bookworm-->Church (1)
Maxwell-->Church (2)
Jehoshaphat-->bookworm (2)
Woody-->bookworm (3)
Astronomer-->Maxwell (1)
Vote Divider-->bookworm-->church (1)


It was decided. Bookworm had to die. They brought him to a deserted clearing and solemnly called the helicopter in. The helicopter circled the clearing three times, while bookworm futilely attempted to escape his bonds. Then, unceremoniously, a large stone fountain was dropped on his head. The Mafia Traitor suffered a relatively painless death.

However, that wasn't the only death that would occur on the third fateful evening. A storm was brewing in the town called Odyssey. Moontide, a Mafia, Jesus' Princess, Graces4You, and Joy, all Town, and Taps, the Receiving Cop, were struck by lightning as dusk quickly approached.

Remaining players:
Astronomer
Jehoshaphat
Church
Vic
Woody
Maxwell Smart


With three Mafia, the Vote Divider and Vote Doubler still in play, anything could happen. It is now night.


EDIT:

NOTE: While I unintentionally confirmed a Mafia who should not have been, the game will still continue. The player in question has been reinstated, and the night has restarted. Sorry for the confusion.
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Re: Mafia Round Eight (Day Three)

Postby Monty » Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:12 am

Church, the unsuspecting victim of the mafia, was hit by a hypnotizing dart and a voice said "You will run into the tv and DIE!" Church did as he said. The Vote Divider was found dead of Electric pulse.

As the morning began, Jehoshaphat yawned and stretched. He wasn't looking forward to having to kill anyone on this day. He walked over to Woody's house to discuss the dilemma. However, as the townies were intent on their discussion, Astronomer, Vic, and Maxwell Smart, all Mafia, entered the home and shot them. Violently. Several hours later, the sun set with a shocked expression still on the Townies' faces.

Mafia Win!!!!
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Re: Mafia Round Eight (MAFIA WIN)

Postby bookworm » Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:05 pm

Even though the game is over I have to make one more in character post to address some things that I was unable to get online for before I was killed.



Of course whatever I say is going to be things people already know. So why would you point out something irrelevant in your defense?
“Because it isn’t irrelevant, and you just confirmed why. You agree that everything you’re saying is things people already know, some are things I have personally noted myself. So what I was questioning was why this information that has been public knowledge all along suddenly cements my guilt, which is what you’re attempting to claim.”
You didn't even refer to it the first day, which suggests you were quite happy with killing JC without giving the idea of revealing the result any real debate first
“No, it suggests that I was unable to, which I was, and I clearly explained in my next post.”
Are you really someone who would shy away from a discussion about soemthing that could benefit or hurt (in your opinion) the town that much?
“No, I certainly am not. That is why I did start a discussion on it as soon as I was able. I had that post about exploring the situation typed up and ready to go, I was simply unable to get online and post it. Please do not attempt to use my internet access or lack thereof as proof of my side one way or the other, that’s just ridiculous.”
By definition, the recieving cop, can only recieve. There's no way around that.
“By definition, a cop can investigate. It’s up to each GM how they want to work the roles. That is why I said we needed Monty to confirm one way or the other, a statement you conveniently left out. I was not saying I had it right and that’s why people needed to see things my way, I said I didn’t know and was waiting to find out for sure, which is the only sensible thing to do.”
Although you never explained how that balance is a good thing.
“You’re right, I didn’t. But that’s because I assumed it was rather obvious. In the event of a tie, in this game at least, no one dies. So in the case of not having any evidence, it’s a way to somewhat prevent a disaster. A greater one anyway.”
In fact, you very much seemed to favor killing Woody right up until KF voted for you. You didn't even acknowledge him until he voted for you.
“Once again, both of these are obvious statement that you are trying to spin to somehow claim they make me suspicious.
Yes, I was thinking about taking out Woody. And once again, I explained why. He was acting very suspicious. When he explained himself, I changed my mind.
Yes, I voted out KF. And I also explained that one. He was acting suspicious, and unlike Woody, was unable to explain himself. Therefore, I had no reason to change my mind. That is the simplest basis of how this game works.”



And now one out of character note that is important for future games:
Everything I said in refuting church’s remarks for the past few pages was entirely genuine. I know it’s unlikely anyone will believe that, since I did turn out to be Mafia there’s a tendency to assume I was just trying to divert suspicion by saying anything, but I really wasn’t.
All of my points were countering less than accurate reasoning and I hope they will be credibly considered in honing players’ skills for future games. Yes I wanted to discredit him, obviously, but that doesn’t invalidate my responses. I would have made nearly all of those statements in the identical way had I been Town, because logic is not dependant on a side.
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Re: Mafia Round Eight (MAFIA WIN)

Postby The Doctor » Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:11 pm

Just so everyone knows, I am a normal townie. The last of the normal townies, in fact.
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Re: Mafia Round Eight (MAFIA WIN)

Postby bookworm » Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:22 pm

I should probably provide an explanation for my actions in this game, being the Mafia Traitor.
Most specifically, I’ll address why I didn’t reveal myself when people requested it.

I will acknowledge that from a pro-Town viewpoint, the Traitor coming forward would have most likely have been a good move. They would have been purposefully lynched by the Town, so they would be out of the game, but it would prevent the Mafia from gaining another member. So yes, it was a good pro-Town plan.

However, as I have said multiple times in the past, my goal in playing these games is to win. Not for the Town to win, not for the Mafia to win, for me to win. I am not bound in loyalty for any one side to succeed, I do what will preserve my personal chances of success. In most cases that would mean doing what would help the side I was on, but this game was not most cases.

By not revealing myself and letting the Town lynch me, I stood a better chance of winning because I was nearly guaranteed survival. As long as I maintained the trust of the Town they wouldn’t kill me, keeping me safe during the day. If the Mafia ever tried to kill me I would stay alive and go over to them, at which time I would always be safe at night. From then on, provided I could keep up appearances during the day, I was invincible.

So that is why I chose to remain hidden. I determined that my chances of winning were better if I kept my fate in my own hands as opposed to doing something that would be a one time aid to the Town side, but then not knowing if they could pull the rest of the game through. No offense meant to any particular Town players, past experiences have just turned me somewhat sour on the Town in general and wary of putting my confidence in it.

In other words, had I gone along with the plan I would have bound myself to the Town side and only won if they had, and not had any part in it one way or the other because I would be dead. But by staying alive I could play along with either side and therefore stood a better chance of winning because I could refine my game play to fit where I was at any specific moment.

I have said before that I dislike being Town. It’s much harder to win on that side. But this role made it less of a burden. It felt like it was specially designed just for me and I’m extremely pleased that I was the one that got it.
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Re: Mafia Round Eight (MAFIA WIN)

Postby Vic » Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:56 pm

Man, you people are really hardcore about a simple party game...

Whatever! I had a good time. This was my first online mafia game and I liked being mafia. ^_^
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Re: Mafia Round Eight (MAFIA WIN)

Postby Moontide » Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:01 pm

Bookworm wrote:I have said before that I dislike being Town. It’s much harder to win on that side. But this role made it less of a burden. It felt like it was specially designed just for me and I’m extremely pleased that I was the one that got it.

That would suggest that the next Mod should increase the power of the town compared to the mafia. (Decrease the number of mafia, or give the town more power-roles. )
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Re: Mafia Round Eight (MAFIA WIN)

Postby bookworm » Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:00 pm

Moontide wrote:That would suggest that the next Mod should increase the power of the town compared to the mafia. (Decrease the number of mafia, or give the town more power-roles. )
Not necessarily. The reason Town is harder isn’t because the power is unbalanced, per se, it’s because of the cooperation factor. When I’m Mafia, it’s quite easy to focus on strategically navigating through the rounds, because people on my team know who I am and we will work together. When I’m Town, I have to not only plot strategy, but worry about staying on everyone’s good side so I’m not turned on, which I find ridiculous most of the time, because as several past games have shown the smallest thing, even if it’s totally fallacious, causes the whole Town to crumble because the slightest suspicion greatly hurts the chances of cooperation, which is vital for the Town to survive. You can increase the Town’s roles all you like, but that won’t make people work together.
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Re: Mafia Round Eight (MAFIA WIN)

Postby ~JCGJ~ » Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:37 pm

Why is it that I have died each time you're mafia, bookworm?

I find that to be an interesting coincedence (sp), even though each kill was for different reasons (ie. lynching and mafia etc.)...


Also, I agree that we should maybe have a break from Mafia for a little while, but maybe, when we do start again, could I be the GM? I'd like to try it out, for fun.


Oh, and I have to say, all this "strategy" is completely useless. Everything anyone does can be considered "suspitious."

Someone is very active. "Oh no! They must be Mafia! Lynch them!"
Someone isn't very active. "Oh no! They Must be Mafia! Lynch them!"
etc. and so on...

I have come to realize that once someone notices a pattern, the pattern then changes, then someone notices that pattern, and that one changes again.

Every "reverse psychology" trick can be reversed, simply because that's what makes reverse psychology so effective.

The only one anyone knows for sure is themself. If they're Mafia, they know everyone else is Town. If they're the Sherriff, they only know those who they've investigated.

Basically, no-one knows anything, and all this back and forth strategy nonsense, simply to look impressive, is pretty much completely useless in terms of winning the game...


This is simply something I've observed... Please, don't let me offend you...
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Re: Mafia Round Eight (MAFIA WIN)

Postby The Doctor » Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:42 pm

~JCGJ~ wrote:Also, I agree that we should maybe have a break from Mafia for a little while, but maybe, when we do start again, could I be the GM? I'd like to try it out, for fun.


Actually, I am the next GM. But I would like it if you GMed a game sometime! :)
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Re: Mafia Round Eight (MAFIA WIN)

Postby bookworm » Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:49 pm

~JCGJ~ wrote:Why is it that I have died each time you're mafia, bookworm?
Because for the Mafia to win everyone has to die... I don’t see the question here. :-k You didn’t die because you’re you, you died because you were on the other team.

~JCGJ~ wrote:This is simply something I've observed... Please, don't let me offend you...
If those comments were directed at me I’m not offended, but I am confused where you have observed this. It is certainly possible, and more than often necessary, to use strategy in these games. I have never done anything to ‘look impressive’ and I never even wanted to impress anyone. (If you haven’t noticed, it makes me a bigger target. Sort of counterproductive if I had done it on purpose.) If people were impressed by me, it was simply because of my gameplay. My gameplay is based solely on logic and strategy, so there must be something to it.
Now, I agree with you that you can’t put stock in patterns or simple mind tricks, because obviously those can be controlled and manipulated. But to go from there to the broader statement that there is no strategy is a very wide, and I might add fallacious, jump.
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Re: Mafia Round Eight (MAFIA WIN)

Postby Knight Fisher » Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:46 pm

I'm just rather annoyed with the town in general when I'm one of them. Mainly, when I give them a list of suspects and then die the next night. Hmm, coincidence?

And as bookworm said, cooperation (Or lack there of.) is why the town loses. If people stopped thinking of their own skins for a minute we could get somewhere.
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