As I said in some other posts, I am really a pastor. I have been so for 10 years. (Well, technically, I'm a youth pastor - I don't know if that really counts)
Anyone got any tough questions about the Bible you'd like to talk through. I'd be happy t oget some discussion going on some deep subjects. Post them here and we'll get the talk started!
Tough Questions / Tough Answers
Offering my Assistance
-
JesusFreak777
- Expecting a battle
- Posts: 4999
- Joined: April 2005
- Location: In the arms of my Father
Yahoo! I've been waiting for something like this. Youth Pastors definatly count. In fact, you may be one of the best typse of pastors out there, at least one of the most fun and bravest types anyway.
I too shall be working with high-schoolers as part of our churches college staff...as soon as I graduate anyway, but I already lead a gir;s Bible Study.
Ok sorry for getting off topic there.
I do have a couple of questions I've been wrestling with, but I need to figure out how to word them so they will make sense. I'll post them here as soon as I get that figured out.
I too shall be working with high-schoolers as part of our churches college staff...as soon as I graduate anyway, but I already lead a gir;s Bible Study.
Ok sorry for getting off topic there.
I do have a couple of questions I've been wrestling with, but I need to figure out how to word them so they will make sense. I'll post them here as soon as I get that figured out.
-
Frank
- Little Old Bird Woman
- Posts: 5141
- Joined: April 2005
- Location: Second star on the right and straight on 'till morning!
So you're like...30 year old. Mind-boggling. Are you related to anyone here...or do you just like AIO? (This is very cool...we have an actual pastor.)Flyah wrote:As I said in some other posts, I am really a pastor. I have been so for 10 years. (Well, technically, I'm a youth pastor - I don't know if that really counts)
What can you tell me about election?
-
Eugene Blackgaard
- Amadeo killed me!
- Posts: 5337
- Joined: April 2005
- Location: The Place to Be.
- Contact:
Here is something I found that I had studied out earlier....I know it's a little wordy, but it may get the ball rolling. I will try to summarize my thoughts a littler more succinctly later. Until then, chew and comment on this! Gotta go - youth groups starting!
Election – Romans 9. In all these places it appears to denote an act of Divine selection taking effect upon human objects so as to bring them into special and saving relations with God: a selection such as to be at once a mysterious thing, transcending human analysis of its motives.
Election is the initial choice of God upon our lives.
Predestination indicates the desired end God has for us, the ultimate goal
The balance between the doctrines of God’s sovereignty and man’s free will exists. It is an antimony, which means ‘a contradiction between two apparently equally valid principles.’ We may not be able to understand it fully, but these truths are revealed in Scripture and we must believe and hold to them. There is danger in just ignoring this doctrine, but there is also danger in being so curious about it and to try to fully grasp and explain it.
ELECTION
This passage falls within a division of Romans that treats the dealings of God with Israel. The discussion is about the historical situation, but some principles are here in dealing with the subject of election. This chapter is not a dogmatic statement of personal. Individuals are involved in the salvation of nations, therefore conclusions can be drawn here from God’s election of the nation of Israel, Abraham and Jacob.
God’s elective purpose is:
(1) not related to human birth (Romans 9:6-9)
not all of Abraham’s line was chosen – just Isaac not all of Isaac’s line was chosen – just Jacob
(2) not related to human merit (Romans 9:10-13)
God’s purpose reversed the human order, God’s purpose ruled out human deeds
(3) definitely related to His mercy and righteousness (Romans 9:14-18)
Note the question in Romans 9:14. Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid! God is not unrighteous, He is merciful. God electing believers and predestinating them to heaven is wonderful. Yet, the command is given to preach the gospel to every creature. Again the balance. How do we comprehend such a thing? We don’t. But it is wonderful to think that God has chosen me!
(4) definitely related to His sovereignty (Romans 9:19-24)
the question is in the face of God / it is His sovereignty that involves us in the salvation process
Grace is extended to all, but saving grace is found only in the elect. God’s election has nothing to do with the purposes, values or works of each individual man, but is related to His sovereignty. God is righteous and merciful.
Though humanly irresolvable, these truths are definitely revealed. Again, an antimony. They are not contradictions to God, they are friends that are not to be reconciled, they are to be grasped and believed in strongly.
(Check out Acts 2:23 and John 6:37 to see the balance)
Accept the Biblical balance and rest in the revelation, not the reason.
Remember that God ordained the means as well as the end.
Recognize our need of dependence on God in evangelism
Relate the gospel clearly to the lost.
Election – Romans 9. In all these places it appears to denote an act of Divine selection taking effect upon human objects so as to bring them into special and saving relations with God: a selection such as to be at once a mysterious thing, transcending human analysis of its motives.
Election is the initial choice of God upon our lives.
Predestination indicates the desired end God has for us, the ultimate goal
The balance between the doctrines of God’s sovereignty and man’s free will exists. It is an antimony, which means ‘a contradiction between two apparently equally valid principles.’ We may not be able to understand it fully, but these truths are revealed in Scripture and we must believe and hold to them. There is danger in just ignoring this doctrine, but there is also danger in being so curious about it and to try to fully grasp and explain it.
ELECTION
This passage falls within a division of Romans that treats the dealings of God with Israel. The discussion is about the historical situation, but some principles are here in dealing with the subject of election. This chapter is not a dogmatic statement of personal. Individuals are involved in the salvation of nations, therefore conclusions can be drawn here from God’s election of the nation of Israel, Abraham and Jacob.
God’s elective purpose is:
(1) not related to human birth (Romans 9:6-9)
not all of Abraham’s line was chosen – just Isaac not all of Isaac’s line was chosen – just Jacob
(2) not related to human merit (Romans 9:10-13)
God’s purpose reversed the human order, God’s purpose ruled out human deeds
(3) definitely related to His mercy and righteousness (Romans 9:14-18)
Note the question in Romans 9:14. Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid! God is not unrighteous, He is merciful. God electing believers and predestinating them to heaven is wonderful. Yet, the command is given to preach the gospel to every creature. Again the balance. How do we comprehend such a thing? We don’t. But it is wonderful to think that God has chosen me!
(4) definitely related to His sovereignty (Romans 9:19-24)
the question is in the face of God / it is His sovereignty that involves us in the salvation process
Grace is extended to all, but saving grace is found only in the elect. God’s election has nothing to do with the purposes, values or works of each individual man, but is related to His sovereignty. God is righteous and merciful.
Though humanly irresolvable, these truths are definitely revealed. Again, an antimony. They are not contradictions to God, they are friends that are not to be reconciled, they are to be grasped and believed in strongly.
(Check out Acts 2:23 and John 6:37 to see the balance)
Accept the Biblical balance and rest in the revelation, not the reason.
Remember that God ordained the means as well as the end.
Recognize our need of dependence on God in evangelism
Relate the gospel clearly to the lost.
-
Eugene Blackgaard
- Amadeo killed me!
- Posts: 5337
- Joined: April 2005
- Location: The Place to Be.
- Contact:
Suffice it to say I believe that God has chosen believers. The word elect in the Bible means to 'select from a number'. It's almost like me saying 'choose a number between one and ten' - we would say you 'select' the number five - but we could also say you 'elected it'.
The toughest part about this doctrine is we wonder if God then has 'elected some to go to hell'. I'll comment more after I read some of your responses.
The toughest part about this doctrine is we wonder if God then has 'elected some to go to hell'. I'll comment more after I read some of your responses.
Yes, as I said I plan to, but I'm running out of time now - I'll simplify it later. Thanks..Eugene Blackgaard wrote:I think it would be beneficial if you explained it in simpler terms, for while I grasp what you're saying, and have heard it before, I believe some may be completley lost. I know I was when I first ecountered the doctrine.
-
Eugene Blackgaard
- Amadeo killed me!
- Posts: 5337
- Joined: April 2005
- Location: The Place to Be.
- Contact:
My belief is it is twofold, man chose God and God chose man. I believe Christ died for the sins of all, and that the free gift is extended to all, and that man chooses to submit himself to God on his own accord. The Holy Spirit may move him, but ultimatley he will choose life or death.
God knows exactly what will happen, but he does not make our choice for us. To say so, I speculate, would eliminate free will, which is essential to our faith. If we do not all have the chance to be elect it defeats the very purpose of Eden, the Fall, and Christ dying for our sins. Sin itself would be pointless as well.
Now, Uderstand Flyah my views in this subject are not set in concrete, I am merely speculating and philosiphizing on what knowledge is in my head, and what I feel I know is true. This is merely my take on the matter, and is subjected to change.
What do you think?
God knows exactly what will happen, but he does not make our choice for us. To say so, I speculate, would eliminate free will, which is essential to our faith. If we do not all have the chance to be elect it defeats the very purpose of Eden, the Fall, and Christ dying for our sins. Sin itself would be pointless as well.
Now, Uderstand Flyah my views in this subject are not set in concrete, I am merely speculating and philosiphizing on what knowledge is in my head, and what I feel I know is true. This is merely my take on the matter, and is subjected to change.
What do you think?
-
JesusFreak777
- Expecting a battle
- Posts: 4999
- Joined: April 2005
- Location: In the arms of my Father
At first, when the question was asked, I had no clue what you were talking about, as I have never herd it caled that. However, once I read Flyah's explenation, I understood, at least a little more. I'm still not quite sure if I've got it.Is election the same as predestination?
I tend to agree with EB. However, I do have another question. Are there a select group of epole who are predestined to heaven? I don't think I believe we are all predestined because that eliminates free will. plus, if that were so then there would be no point for missionaries or going into the world at all. Those who were supposed to believe would and those who weren't wouldn't.
I hope this makes sense. I'm still trying to decide exactly where I stand on stuff. I thought I had this igured out long ago, but I have since had to scrap everything I knew about God and my relationship with him and start over.
JF
I tend to agree with EB. However, I do have another question. Are there a select group of epole who are predestined to heaven? I don't think I believe we are all predestined because that eliminates free will. plus, if that were so then there would be no point for missionaries or going into the world at all. Those who were supposed to believe would and those who weren't wouldn't.
I hope this makes sense. I'm still trying to decide exactly where I stand on stuff. I thought I had this igured out long ago, but I have since had to scrap everything I knew about God and my relationship with him and start over.
JF
-
Shad Lexer
- Ignorance of the law is no excuse
- Posts: 4032
- Joined: April 2005
- Location: Right where I'm supposed to be.
Simply defined, the doctrine of election means that God chose us. We were selected to be graced with the gift of salvation. Some would say that it is based on God's 'before hand knowledge.' In other words, since God knows everything - he knew who would accept salvation and that's basically election.
However, this eliminates the whole aspect of the word elect -which means to choose. This is referred to in Romans 9 and Ephesians 1 among other places.
It helps to see salvation from God's perspective and man's perspective. God has chosen the saved. But each person has a free will. We cannot understand these two things or make them mesh - but they both are true.
God is a lot bigger than we think. And we cannot eliminate the doctrine of 'choosing' (election) because it doesn't fit with our thinking. The Scripture teaches it and we must accpet it, even if we can't understand it.
However, this eliminates the whole aspect of the word elect -which means to choose. This is referred to in Romans 9 and Ephesians 1 among other places.
It helps to see salvation from God's perspective and man's perspective. God has chosen the saved. But each person has a free will. We cannot understand these two things or make them mesh - but they both are true.
God is a lot bigger than we think. And we cannot eliminate the doctrine of 'choosing' (election) because it doesn't fit with our thinking. The Scripture teaches it and we must accpet it, even if we can't understand it.
-
Shad Lexer
- Ignorance of the law is no excuse
- Posts: 4032
- Joined: April 2005
- Location: Right where I'm supposed to be.
-
Trent DeWhite
- Former Mayor
- Posts: 11659
- Joined: April 2005
- Location: Canada
- Contact:
Last year, I wrote on this very topic, freewill versus predestination, in an essay entitled, "Calvinism vs. Arminianism - Whose Will?" Here are a few excepts from the essay. It pretty much sums up my beliefs on this issue.
Total Depravity vs. Free Will
According to the Calvinist belief, man’s inclination to sin has ensnared his will. Even though he can make choices according to his nature, man’s character has been so corrupted that he can never choose what is pure. Calvinists point to verses in Mark 7:21-23 and Romans 3:10-12, which say that man’s heart is utterly wicked and that no one seeks God because they have all wandered down the wrong path. Thus, man cannot accept Christ without God’s intervention. In essence, Calvinism states that man only has the free will to choose evil and that he does not have the capacity to choose God.
On the other hand, Arminianism says that man’s sinful nature has not completely hindered his ability to choose God. Rather, Arminians believe that man can freely choose good or evil. They read John 3:16 and emphasize the phrase "whoever believes in Him", as it seems to indicate man has a choice to accept or reject Christ. In John 7:17, the prophet writes, "If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own." This highlights man’s capacity to choose God. Arminians say that, through choice and faith, man can receive God’s gift of salvation.
What Does This Mean?
Ultimately, Calvinists and Arminians share and believe in one Bible, one Word, and one true God. To a large extent, their differences have arisen because of their separate vantage points. In the same way that the six blind men described the elephant differently according to the famous Indian parable, Calvinism and Arminianism view the same truth from two distinct perspectives. The parable describes how one man felt the elephant’s leg and figured the animal had the shape of a tree. Another man groped at its flank and exclaimed, "This animal is like a wall!" Every other man touched different parts of the elephant’s body, thinking that he was right and the others were all wrong. Yet, they all were touching the same animal! Likewise, Calvinism looks at free will from one angle, while Arminianism views it from another.
Neither is incorrect; in many ways, the two are observing different aspects of God’s infinite and inconceivable character. Calvinism attempts to look at man’s election from God’s eternal perspective which transcends time. Since God has known from eternity past to eternity future those who would receive Him (and conversely those who would not receive Him), the Calvinist is able to advocate, for example, the doctrine of limited atonement. That is, Calvinists look backwards from eternity future and state that those who did not receive Christ were not chosen and that Christ did not die for them. Arminianism looks at man’s election from the human perspective, confined by boundaries of time. From this vantage point, man does not know who will choose God and thus, the focus is placed upon man’s choice or free will. As such, Christ’s atonement is universal and all possess the capacity to come to Him.
Conclusion
Despite man’s attempt to solve the mystery surrounding election and salvation, in the end, he will only find the real answer on the other side of heaven. However, while this debate continues, Christians must always acknowledge God’s sovereignty and power. At the same time, He requires us to respond to His enabling and gifting. Romans 12:6-8, "God has given each of us the ability to do certain things well. So if God has given you the ability to prophesy, speak out when you have faith that God is speaking through you. If your gift is that of serving others, serve them well. If you are a teacher, do a good job of teaching. If your gift is to encourage others, do it! If you have money, share it generously. If God has given you leadership ability, take the responsibility seriously. And if you have a gift for showing kindness to others, do it gladly."
God will continue to operate paradoxically. Concepts such as God’s mercy and justice, often times, will always appear to be at odds with each other. Our limited understanding prevents us from fully comprehending His perspective and design. Yet, this grandeur and mystery draws us to Him and makes Him even more worthy to be worshipped and praised as our creator. Consequently, regardless of our stance on free will and the surrounding issues, our focus should be directed heavenward to God.
Total Depravity vs. Free Will
According to the Calvinist belief, man’s inclination to sin has ensnared his will. Even though he can make choices according to his nature, man’s character has been so corrupted that he can never choose what is pure. Calvinists point to verses in Mark 7:21-23 and Romans 3:10-12, which say that man’s heart is utterly wicked and that no one seeks God because they have all wandered down the wrong path. Thus, man cannot accept Christ without God’s intervention. In essence, Calvinism states that man only has the free will to choose evil and that he does not have the capacity to choose God.
On the other hand, Arminianism says that man’s sinful nature has not completely hindered his ability to choose God. Rather, Arminians believe that man can freely choose good or evil. They read John 3:16 and emphasize the phrase "whoever believes in Him", as it seems to indicate man has a choice to accept or reject Christ. In John 7:17, the prophet writes, "If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own." This highlights man’s capacity to choose God. Arminians say that, through choice and faith, man can receive God’s gift of salvation.
What Does This Mean?
Ultimately, Calvinists and Arminians share and believe in one Bible, one Word, and one true God. To a large extent, their differences have arisen because of their separate vantage points. In the same way that the six blind men described the elephant differently according to the famous Indian parable, Calvinism and Arminianism view the same truth from two distinct perspectives. The parable describes how one man felt the elephant’s leg and figured the animal had the shape of a tree. Another man groped at its flank and exclaimed, "This animal is like a wall!" Every other man touched different parts of the elephant’s body, thinking that he was right and the others were all wrong. Yet, they all were touching the same animal! Likewise, Calvinism looks at free will from one angle, while Arminianism views it from another.
Neither is incorrect; in many ways, the two are observing different aspects of God’s infinite and inconceivable character. Calvinism attempts to look at man’s election from God’s eternal perspective which transcends time. Since God has known from eternity past to eternity future those who would receive Him (and conversely those who would not receive Him), the Calvinist is able to advocate, for example, the doctrine of limited atonement. That is, Calvinists look backwards from eternity future and state that those who did not receive Christ were not chosen and that Christ did not die for them. Arminianism looks at man’s election from the human perspective, confined by boundaries of time. From this vantage point, man does not know who will choose God and thus, the focus is placed upon man’s choice or free will. As such, Christ’s atonement is universal and all possess the capacity to come to Him.
Conclusion
Despite man’s attempt to solve the mystery surrounding election and salvation, in the end, he will only find the real answer on the other side of heaven. However, while this debate continues, Christians must always acknowledge God’s sovereignty and power. At the same time, He requires us to respond to His enabling and gifting. Romans 12:6-8, "God has given each of us the ability to do certain things well. So if God has given you the ability to prophesy, speak out when you have faith that God is speaking through you. If your gift is that of serving others, serve them well. If you are a teacher, do a good job of teaching. If your gift is to encourage others, do it! If you have money, share it generously. If God has given you leadership ability, take the responsibility seriously. And if you have a gift for showing kindness to others, do it gladly."
God will continue to operate paradoxically. Concepts such as God’s mercy and justice, often times, will always appear to be at odds with each other. Our limited understanding prevents us from fully comprehending His perspective and design. Yet, this grandeur and mystery draws us to Him and makes Him even more worthy to be worshipped and praised as our creator. Consequently, regardless of our stance on free will and the surrounding issues, our focus should be directed heavenward to God.
Check out our interview with Paul McCusker, author and director of Darien's Rise!
-
Shad Lexer
- Ignorance of the law is no excuse
- Posts: 4032
- Joined: April 2005
- Location: Right where I'm supposed to be.
What do you think about trust? Is it wrong for someone to want proof before trusting someone? If you have a friend that you've known for years, but you want "facts" about something, is that wrong? Should trust be 100% faith?
This question is tought to answer without knowing more specifically what you mean. I don't think being skeptical about someone is wrong but it depends on what your motives are.
This question is tought to answer without knowing more specifically what you mean. I don't think being skeptical about someone is wrong but it depends on what your motives are.
-
Jennifer Doyle
- An original
- Posts: 6292
- Joined: May 2005
- Location: Doyle Manor, Odyssey
- Contact:
Howdy,
I've always wondered: Do you think it's Biblical for a Christian to seperate their faith and the way they vote? For instance, believing abortion is wrong but voting for a candidate that will vote in favor of abortion? Isn't that the same as supporting it? There are other political issues that go against the Bible but Christians will still vote for the candidates...
~Jen
I've always wondered: Do you think it's Biblical for a Christian to seperate their faith and the way they vote? For instance, believing abortion is wrong but voting for a candidate that will vote in favor of abortion? Isn't that the same as supporting it? There are other political issues that go against the Bible but Christians will still vote for the candidates...
~Jen
“God grant me the courage not to give up what I think is right even though I think it is hopeless.” Chester W. Nimitz
In answer to your question I believe that a person should always vote their convictions. To vote for a pro-choice candidate you really are supporting abortion. It's becoming more and more difficult to find candidates who are worth of your vote. What sense is a conviction if you're not willing to make a decision based on that conviction?LovedbyGod wrote:Howdy,
I've always wondered: Do you think it's Biblical for a Christian to seperate their faith and the way they vote? For instance, believing abortion is wrong but voting for a candidate that will vote in favor of abortion? Isn't that the same as supporting it? There are other political issues that go against the Bible but Christians will still vote for the candidates...
~Jen
-
Eugene Blackgaard
- Amadeo killed me!
- Posts: 5337
- Joined: April 2005
- Location: The Place to Be.
- Contact: