Tough Questions / Tough Answers

[Flyah]

Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? 1 Cor 11:14

The word nature in this verse could carry the idea of 'instinct'. I would say that the Bible is fairly clear in this area. The word shame means 'disgrace' so I'm not sure if God would consider this 'wrong' or 'sinful' but certainly it is unnatural.

[Eugene Blackgaard]

Ah, I see. And I suppose many men would feel silly/ashamed having hair down to their back. What I don't agree with is that it is wrongful to have hair that is a bit longer than the average man. I believe the scripture should be taken into context, the people Paul was writing to at the time had a large homosexual culture group, where the gay men would have hair down to their backs, and the gey women would have short hair to promote their homosexuality.

I disagree with the claim of that passage of scripture being a commandment. I believe it is merely advice giveb by Paul, not God's law.

Anyways, Flyah, I had another question. I know a friend who believes not all scripture applies to us (the believers). He says that Christians are wrong by applying Jeremiah 29:11 "For I know the thoughts I think towards you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace and not evil, to give you a future and a hope" to themselves. He says that scripture only applies to Jeremiah, and Christians shouldn't take this scripture as their own.

What do you think? While he is an esteemed colleuge of mine, I personally disagree with his line of thinking.

[JesusFreak777]

I have a couple of questions. Right now I have been reading in 1 Corinthians where Paul is talking about the roles of women. (Chapter 11 among others, I think) I would not call myself a femmenist by any means, but I was kind of annoyed at the views on women that Paul writes about. My question is, where does Paul end and the Lord begin? Is all of this still applicable today, or was it simply for that time period, and how do you know?

I do have another question/consern that I would appreciate your advice on, but I do not quite know how to phrase it. I will pm it to you instead, and if you like you can then post it here. Hopefully this will make sense when i figure out how to phrase it and then send it to you.

Thanks so much Flyah.

[Alleycat]

Is evolution connected to teen suicide, and teen sex?

[JesusFreak777]

Is evolution connected to teen suicide, and teen sex?

(Please know that I am NOT a pastor), but from what I have seen going on around me, the correlation is not that strong. I know several "Christians" be it in name or in creed that have fallen into these problems. While i don't know anyone who has gone through with suicide, I know several people who have thoguht about it, including myself at times (but hey, that's what therapy and counciling is for). It does not make a bad person, nor does it make you unChristian to feel suicudal.

teen sex is one of those things that is wrong, but just becauseyou mess up doesn't mean you are no longer a Christian IMO. I don't hae much time right now, so I may post more later.

[Laura Ingalls]

Sputnik wrote:
Is evolution connected to teen suicide, and teen sex?

I've read some good things by Ken Ham on that...how the evolutionary mindset has caused so many kids to think they are just here by random chance. They don't matter and what they do doesn't matter, because there is no God and everything just came about by millions of mutations. We came from monkeys and it's fine to follow our animal instincts.

Of course, not all sucides and sexual sins are because of that, but I think that worldview has contributed to how widespread such things have become.

[Linne]

Suffice it to say I believe that God has chosen believers. The word elect in the Bible means to 'select from a number'. It's almost like me saying 'choose a number between one and ten' - we would say you 'select' the number five - but we could also say you 'elected it'.

The toughest part about this doctrine is we wonder if God then has 'elected some to go to hell'. I'll comment more after I read some of your responses.

Woah. Sorry to bring up this again, but I just want to let it known where I stand. (I do that a lot.)

Remember, this is just my opinion.

God has not chosen a certain number of people to be saved. If so, we wouldn't have to worry about getting saved, it would either happen or it wouldn't. Well, that doesn't make much sense. If we have to make the desicion and decide for ourselves that we believe in Jesus, why would God just randomly choose us?

Yes, God knows exactly who is going to be saved, but He will do everything He can to ask everyone to be saved. He's not going to pick a few, and laugh off the rest. He gives everyone the same choice, be saved or not.

And if this were so, why are we instructed to "go into all the world and make disciples of all people"? They wouldn't need us would they? Because they were chosen. Election by God just doesn't add up to everything else the Bible teaches.

[Eugene Blackgaard]

Suffice it to say I believe that God has chosen believers. The word elect in the Bible means to 'select from a number'. It's almost like me saying 'choose a number between one and ten' - we would say you 'select' the number five - but we could also say you 'elected it'.

The toughest part about this doctrine is we wonder if God then has 'elected some to go to hell'. I'll comment more after I read some of your responses.

Woah. Sorry to bring up this again, but I just want to let it known where I stand. (I do that a lot.)

Remember, this is just my opinion.

God has not chosen a certain number of people to be saved. If so, we wouldn't have to worry about getting saved, it would either happen or it wouldn't. Well, that doesn't make much sense. If we have to make the desicion and decide for ourselves that we believe in Jesus, why would God just randomly choose us?

Yes, God knows exactly who is going to be saved, but He will do everything He can to ask everyone to be saved. He's not going to pick a few, and laugh off the rest. He gives everyone the same choice, be saved or not.

And if this were so, why are we instructed to "go into all the world and make disciples of all people"? They wouldn't need us would they? Because they were chosen. Election by God just doesn't add up to everything else the Bible teaches.

Exactly! Life isn't just some drama for God's entertainment, where he makes us do everything we do! Sure, there is the permissive and the absolute will of God, but he does not have controll over everything because if he did free will would not excist. Man must choose God to be saved, that is the very principal of Salvation. After we choose Jesus we can submit our lives to him and have his will, not ours for our lives, which is infinatley better!

I'd say every person on the earth was elected when Jesus died, meaning they were given the privledged option of choosing God's free gift or rejecting it, life or death!

[Flyah]

Sure, there is the permissive and the absolute will of God, but he does not have controll over everything because if he did free will would not excist. Man must choose God to be saved, that is the very principal of Salvation. After we choose Jesus we can submit our lives to him and have his will, not ours for our lives, which is infinatley better!

I'd say every person on the earth was elected when Jesus died, meaning they were given the privledged option of choosing God's free gift or rejecting it, life or death!

A couple of comments. First of all, how can you say God is not in control of everything? To say He is not, is to say He is not God. Sovereignty is a clearly defined attribute of God. He is in control of all things. The Bible says our God is in the heavens and He does whatever He pleases.

This is much different than your remark: "I'd say". Be careful. The Bible talks clearly about election. It's not what we feel about the subject. The Word of God is our authority.

[Flyah]

God has not chosen a certain number of people to be saved.

But this is what the Bible teaches. Romans 9, Eph 1. "Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated..."

If so, we wouldn't have to worry about getting saved, it would either happen or it wouldn't. Well, that doesn't make much sense. If we have to make the desicion and decide for ourselves that we believe in Jesus, why would God just randomly choose us?

Both sides of the coin are true. We have been chosen (Remember the word means to select from a number) and we have the free will to choose God's salvation. We can't mesh both truths, because we're not God.

Yes, God knows exactly who is going to be saved, but He will do everything He can to ask everyone to be saved. He's not going to pick a few, and laugh off the rest. He gives everyone the same choice, be saved or not.

It's not that God is laughing off the rest. God is not willing that any should perish. Everyone who is thirsty may come. But He has elected a certain number to be saved. You will neer coordinate the truths, but they are both taught![/quote]

Election by God just doesn't add up to everything else the Bible teaches.

But election is also taught in Scripture. We can't deny truth just because it makes us uncomfortable.

[Jeremy]

Great points, Flyah!

The Bible teaches over and over again that God is sovereign.

But where is there even a single text that says that we have a "free will"?

And yes, we have to go with what the Word of God says, not what we "think" or "feel."

EDIT: I just found a great article. Here is an excerpt from it:

There is also another problem; for the free-will theist, free-will theology is never consistent. You ask someone who believes in free-will if they had free-will before they are saved. They say "yes." You ask them if they are free after they are saved, they still say "yes" to remain consistent. But that poses a problem and a question - if you were free before salvation to choose or not choose to follow Jesus, what about after salvation? Can you choose to freely walk away from Christ? Can you choose to freely reject the salvation He saved you with even after you have been converted? Is the power of Jesus Christ's cross nullified by your "free-will?" If they are consistent with their theology they must answer "yes." (If they see the error they are making then all we need to do is show them that free-will is inconsistent before salvation as well as after.) Then their theology suffers harshly when we ask the same question upon entrance into heaven. After you enter heaven do you still have free will? To be consistent they must say "yes." Then can a person freely walk out of heaven? They shudder to answer that one. But you see the problem. When does God take away your free-will? He must at some point. If any real security of salvation is to be found, free-will in this manner must be erased from our minds. Philippians 1:6 would be wrong. "He who began a good work in you will continue it until the day of completion" would not be true. We would have to rewrite it to say, "You who have begun some kind of free-will work in yourself and believed on Christ will hopefully continue to believe it until the end or else you will fall away." That does not show forth very much security and des great injustice to the finished work of Christ. Or what about Jesus' words in John 10:28, "And I give them eternal life and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone them out of my hand." Words like these are secure for believers because they show forth the power of Christ, and the power of His saving hand, not our "free-will." The idea of free-will is completely foreign to the text. You must remove these texts, and hundreds of others for free-will theists to be right.

There are always objections. People say, "but I feel like I am free." Our subjective experience of feeling is never a warrant for biblical truth.

--http://www.apuritansmind.com/Tracts%20a ... eeWill.htm

Jeremy

[Alleycat]

Sputnik wrote:
Is evolution connected to teen suicide, and teen sex?

I've read some good things by Ken Ham on that...how the evolutionary mindset has caused so many kids to think they are just here by random chance. They don't matter and what they do doesn't matter, because there is no God and everything just came about by millions of mutations. We came from monkeys and it's fine to follow our animal instincts.

Of course, not all sucides and sexual sins are because of that, but I think that worldview has contributed to how widespread such things have become.

Yeah! That's my veiws exactly. I was wondering who would answer, and how. If any of you have seen Dr. Kent Hoving videos, you may have seen how he shows on a graph, how teen suicide and teen sex has sky-rocketed since darwin.
boy I wish I could show the world just HOW WRONG and untrue evolution is. There is no evidence! All the evidence they ever find isn't. Dr. Hovind can prove it. The bible can prove it. The earth proves it!!!!

[Flyah]

Sputnik wrote:
Is evolution connected to teen suicide, and teen sex?

I've read some good things by Ken Ham on that...how the evolutionary mindset has caused so many kids to think they are just here by random chance. They don't matter and what they do doesn't matter, because there is no God and everything just came about by millions of mutations. We came from monkeys and it's fine to follow our animal instincts.

Of course, not all sucides and sexual sins are because of that, but I think that worldview has contributed to how widespread such things have become.

Yeah! That's my veiws exactly. I was wondering who would answer, and how. If any of you have seen Dr. Kent Hoving videos, you may have seen how he shows on a graph, how teen suicide and teen sex has sky-rocketed since darwin.
boy I wish I could show the world just HOW WRONG and untrue evolution is. There is no evidence! All the evidence they ever find isn't. Dr. Hovind can prove it. The bible can prove it. The earth proves it!!!!

Sorry I haven't answered this one yet. I agree that evolution has had a profound effect on other sins in the teen community. If you teach someone that they are an animal - how do you expect them to react? The bottom line is the sin nature of human beings cannot be corrected without the saving work of Jesus Christ.

[Alleycat]

go flyah!

[Methodius]

Please understand ahead of time that all my statements are in Christian love. I'm not here to be antagonistic toward anyone. Instead I desire to discuss some of the deeper issues of my faith.

A couple of comments. First of all, how can you say God is not in control of everything? To say He is not, is to say He is not God. Sovereignty is a clearly defined attribute of God. He is in control of all things. The Bible says our God is in the heavens and He does whatever He pleases.

As I read Eugene's post it seemed that he didn't say what it first appears he said. That God is sometimes helpless or can't prevent things. What I believe he is saying is that God has chosen to not always control everything. Do you believe that God controls the devil when he is tempting people? I sincerely hope not! God created everything and rules over all of it. When He did so He chose to give His creation a free will. Considering the tragic consequences that have happened stemming from the angel's and then man's choice to sin that can be hard to resolve. What God wants in the end is people who chose to be devoted to Him instead of being so by His force. That doesn't render God weak and helpless. On the contrary He is still the Almighty. He can cause or prevent anything that happens. Yet He doesn't always cause people to good or prevent evil. We can't accuse Him of being the originator of the evil! When He doesn't cause the good we have to keep our trust in Him anyway. To illustrate this point, consider the fact that God says that whoever believes in Jesus will be saved. Why doesn't the Bible just say that whoever God chooses will be saved? It would spare us a lot of grief trying to interpret the passages correctly. We also know that God wants reconciliation with everyone but that it won't happen. It's a sobering thought - the sovereign God is allowing people to make poor choices.

This is much different than your remark: "I'd say". Be careful. The Bible talks clearly about election. It's not what we feel about the subject. The Word of God is our authority.

Flyah, please realize that not everyone agrees on this doctrine. There are many out there who do not believe in election as you define it. If the Bible were crystal clear on the subject I believe that there would be more of a consensus among [true] Christians. There is a fine line between "telling it like the Bible says" and interpreting passages. You've made your belief clear and I respect that. Eugene has made his belief clear and I respect that as well. What I don't respect is a rebuttal built on a poor word choice. Did Eugene use the phrase "I'd say" indicating that his belief is supreme? I would guess no. More likely [to the best of my ability without having consulted Eugene] it was an attempt at humility. That is what Eugene would say because that is what Eugene firmly believes. His phrase leaves the door open to the acknowledgment that he may be wrong because he doesn't know everything. Neither does anyone else here. So unlike the way this is being portrayed, it is not [again to the best of my knowledge] the Bible vs. Eugene's feelings. It is Flyah's interpretation vs. Eugene's interpretation. This does not have an obvious answer like a discussion on adultery would. There are numerous people representing both sides. You have a chance to make your case and Eugene has a chance to make his. To undercut what he says by throwing a couple words back in his face is not a convincing way to go about this. If you are going to convince me I'll need something more solid. I pray that all my words will be understood in the nicest of terms. Your warning is a good one but its application has been stretched to fit this instance. I speak this to a brother in Christ and desire that you will explain your position further for the benefit of us all.

Both sides of the coin are true. We have been chosen (Remember the word means to select from a number) and we have the free will to choose God's salvation. We can't mesh both truths, because we're not God.

I agree that both sides of the coin are true but I'm having difficulty finding more than one side to yours. No one can be saved unless God draws Him and shows mercy. No one can be saved unless he confesses that Jesus is Lord and believes that God raised Him from the dead. Jesus died for all men so God extends the offer of salvation to everyone. God does His part but man is given the responsibility to do his part.

It's not that God is laughing off the rest. God is not willing that any should perish. Everyone who is thirsty may come. But He has elected a certain number to be saved. You will neer coordinate the truths, but they are both taught!

He has elected those who have chosen Him to be saved. If God is sovereign and He doesn't want people to perish, He should save everyone. Evidence of free will is found when we realize that many men are still perishing.

Election by God just doesn't add up to everything else the Bible teaches.

But election is also taught in Scripture. We can't deny truth just because it makes us uncomfortable.

Another comment that is painful to read. Read what Bearliz is saying again. Is she denying the word election is in the Bible? My best guess is that she is responding to election in your terms. The idea that God chose who is saved and who is damned before the beginning of time. That is an election that she does not believe in. Those who discard such a belief yet maintain belief in the accuracy of the Bible believe as I said above. Election is for those who make the choice for God. 2 Peter 1:10

Now I'll express my appreciation to Flyah for opening the Church and starting this thread. This is the issue that I've chosen to respond to but let it be known that I've enjoyed many other things that Flyah has had to say.

Thank you for listening.

In His Service,
Methodius

[Jeremy]

First off, I want to say that I don't have all the answers, and these are honest genuine questions. I really want to know the answers.

No one can be saved unless God draws Him and shows mercy. No one can be saved unless he confesses that Jesus is Lord and believes that God raised Him from the dead. Jesus died for all men so God extends the offer of salvation to everyone.

Then wouldn't ALL people in the world have to come to Jesus and be saved? Because Jesus says, "ALL that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me" (John 6:37 NASB).

God does His part but man is given the responsibility to do his part.

Do my part?? In salvation?? That sounds like me and Jesus are co-saviors--that doesn't sound like God does all the saving. The Bible says that our faith is a GIFT from God (Ephesians 2:8), and that it is something which we have "received":

"Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours,..." (2 Peter 1:1 NASB.)

It's not that God is laughing off the rest. God is not willing that any should perish. Everyone who is thirsty may come. But He has elected a certain number to be saved. You will neer coordinate the truths, but they are both taught!

He has elected those who have chosen Him to be saved. If God is sovereign and He doesn't want people to perish, He should save everyone. Evidence of free will is found when we realize that many men are still perishing.

"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9 NASB.)

Who is the "you"? Those called and chosen by God? Otherwise how could the Lord EVER return if He keeps waiting for people to come to repentance because He doesn't want any to perish but all to come to repentance? You see what I'm saying?

God bless,

Jeremy

[Flyah]

First of all, I created this thread to discuss deep issues while doing so lovingly. I want to say that so far, this has been fulfilled. Methodius - you have presented a good argument and did so in a very Christlike way. I appreciate that as well as the other thoughful and kind responses. I trust this response will be viewed in the same way.

I disagree that this is a discussion on interpretations of the Bible. I believe that every passage in the Bible has one proper interpretation. It is the job of believers to figure out what that is - through prayer, discussion, study and debate. Let's look to one particular passage. Ephesians 1:3-7.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace.

To properly discern what a passage is saying - let's ask it some questions.

What does election mean? Answer: to select (from Greek word study)
Who is doing the choosing? - Answer: God
When did this choosing take place? - Answer: Before the foundation of the world
For what purpose was this choice made? Answer: To be holy and without blame
Whom did God choose? Answer: Believers
How do we know whom God has chosen? Answer: We don't!

So just from asking the text questions we have learned that God chose believers from before the foundation of the world to be holy. That is a pretty clear interpretation of that passage. We also learn later in the passage about predestination which means 'to mark out beforehand'. We have predestinated for adoption! What a thrilling passage!

What lessons can we learn?

We cannot neglect nor make absolute savlation doctrines.

Election can only be defined from the BIble from God's eternal perspective.

There is no doctrine of reprobation in the Bible. This means that though God elected believers for salvation, he didn't elect unbelievers to hell. In fact, in the Greek, the word elect here does not imply the rejection of what is not chosen. Also the Bible says that hell was created for the devil and his angels.

There are true statements in the Bible that may cause theological tension -on these we must plead for balance, not dogmatism. I have not talked a lot about 'free will', but I believe in that wholeheartedly as well. "Whosoever will may come!" Also Is 55 and Rev 22. This is just as trues as election! I hold tightly to both doctrines!

[Flyah]

But this discussion has turned into a discussion on the sovereignty of God. It seems as though the main question is now boiling down to, "What is God in control of?" How does evil fit into God's plan?

Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not? Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? (Lam 3:37-38)

I do believe that God controls Satan when he is tempting people.

For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. (Acts 4:27-28)

This is a prayer recorded for us in Scripture which indicates that Herod's and Pilates actions as well as Judas' betrayal and crucifixion of Christ were all determined by God beforehand to take place. God orchestrated these events. But the Bible said Satan had filled the heart of Judas. (Luke 22:3) God Himself planned the murder of Christ from before the world began. This is a weighty discussion. The betrayal certainly was sin, but God had planned it.

For a more thorough discussion on this, for those interested, I would suggest reading the books of John Piper or Jonathan Edwards. Again, I trust these words are received in the same way they've been written, with lovingkindness for the purpose of edification.

God Bless....and looking forward to more stimulating discussion like this. We don't have to agree, but it helps to listen! - - I appreciate all the posts - even those I disagree with - I love in the Lord.

[Jeremy]

Do you believe that God controls the devil when he is tempting people? I sincerely hope not!

Of course He does! Are you saying that the devil tempts people without God's permission?

The Bible says that Jesus was led by the Spirit to be tempted by the devil. Do you think the devil even wanted to tempt Jesus? I don't think so--he can't stand to be in His presence! But God wanted to prove that Jesus was God and that He was sinless and holy and righteous and could not sin! Jesus was tested and proven holy.

Jeremy

[Flyah]

Do you think the devil even wanted to tempt Jesus?

Yes, I believe the devil wanted to tempt Jesus. Did the devil know that Jesus would succeed ni overcoming the temptations - remember that the devil is not omniscient. If Satan could've actually got Jesus to sin - the world as we know it would not exist.

All that said and to prevent anouther dialogue from taking place - I do not believe that Jesus could've sinned.