Are most churches mindless formulas ?

[snubs]

I agree with what you are saying, Amethystic.

[Shennifer]

yes, very good points made, Amy.

and about what ique first said about churches, I have this to say: (this'll be brief because it's late and I want to go to sleep)
the church I grew up in had good things about it; Awanas, solid Sunday school teachers, fun stuff for kids and teens. But, in my opinion, it was very easy to be lukewarm in that church. I used to go just to make myself feel better because I really wasn't living like a Christian should. And I did learn good things there...but I didn't understand a lot of the essentials about salvation, about what it meant to give your life to God, etc etc. And yes, that church was mostly a mindless formula, though I didn't think it was so mindless back then; it was more me that had problems then the church did (though I could be wrong about that, I don't know.)
However, 7 years ago, we switched churches. And yes, this one does follow routine, it's a much better, more solid church that has much more variety of ages instead of mostly older people (don't get me wrong, I had friends who were older people at my old church, but this new one was better in a lot of ways). And I grew so much more at this new church, and eventually got to the place I am now with God and with others.
I agree that the whole point of church and youth group, what have you, is to point you to pursuing Jesus, not pointing you to support a church or an organization. And if you're church isn't pointing to Jesus, but to a pastor, to a routine, or anything besides Jesus and growing closer to God, and evangelizing, then it's no wonder that you don't like it because you're not getting what you need there.

I'll pray for you ique, that you'll encounter God in real and amazing ways. You sound like a unique, and honest person who really does want to grow and serve God; I'll echo what I, and others, have said here: pursue God above everything.

[ique]

that's very sweet of you shennifer.
i'm hoping i will eventually find a church that can help me grow, too.

small update: i found a local church that actually meets in the houses of its members, so basically a house church that's at a different house each week. i was reading their website and it seemed like it could be what i was looking for. so i sent an email... but it came back to me, because their inbox was full. so i called them and left a message. it's been a week and nobody has called me back. RAWR.
so much for that. >.>

[King Butter Turtle]

I have to disagree with what some of you are saying about tithes--my dad works in ministry, and I've lost track of the times he's dealt with people who were suffering financially because they weren't tithing--and in every one of those cases, the people had dramatic turnarounds once they started giving again. Tithing at least 10% is necessity (even if you aren't giving to a church specifically--it's good to be tithing to any ministries you participate in or benefit from). Yes, God technically does own everything, but the giving is more for our benefit than His. Besides, how much of "God's" money do we actually use on His will and ministry?

The problem I have with tithing isn't the giving by any means. Christians absolutely need to give WAY more and almost all Americans should be giving away at least 75% of their incomes. But, if some one's making a dollar a day, it's illogical for them to give 10 cents of it to help the poor. They are the poor; that's just silly. Another large problem with tithing is that it's a percentage, leaving people with hugely varying lifestyles. Some after-tithe incomes will be $90,000 and others $900. I just don't see how a Christian can justify living off of so much when there are others who have so little. What we need is, instead of a percentage of your income that you must give away, a set standard of living you must live by, with all excess recourses being given away. That way, everyone's needs will be met. (which should be the real goal) I'm fine with having a car but, Christianity teaches to love your neighbor as yourself so, the first person shouldn't get their car until the last person gets their bike.

[CookieMonster]

The first church didn't have any denominations or "church buildings". It was usually a closely knit band of 10 to 15 believers who were solely committed to spreading the gospel. However I agree with you, because over the years I believe that we have turned "church" into a cliche and lost site of the main goals that Christ set down for the church. Now i'm not saying alll churchs are like that but a good majority have been like the loveless church in Ephesus.

Revelation 3:4-5
Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.

"Church is not the place you go on Sundays it's the vital body of believers held together by a common experience in Christ."

[Anna><>]

I have to disagree with what some of you are saying about tithes--my dad works in ministry, and I've lost track of the times he's dealt with people who were suffering financially because they weren't tithing--and in every one of those cases, the people had dramatic turnarounds once they started giving again. Tithing at least 10% is necessity (even if you aren't giving to a church specifically--it's good to be tithing to any ministries you participate in or benefit from). Yes, God technically does own everything, but the giving is more for our benefit than His. Besides, how much of "God's" money do we actually use on His will and ministry?

The problem I have with tithing isn't the giving by any means. Christians absolutely need to give WAY more and almost all Americans should be giving away at least 75% of their incomes. But, if some one's making a dollar a day, it's illogical for them to give 10 cents of it to help the poor. They are the poor; that's just silly. Another large problem with tithing is that it's a percentage, leaving people with hugely varying lifestyles. Some after-tithe incomes will be $90,000 and others $900. I just don't see how a Christian can justify living off of so much when there are others who have so little. What we need is, instead of a percentage of your income that you must give away, a set standard of living you must live by, with all excess recourses being given away. That way, everyone's needs will be met. (which should be the real goal) I'm fine with having a car but, Christianity teaches to love your neighbor as yourself so, the first person shouldn't get their car until the last person gets their bike.

Well there was the story in the Bible of the poor lady who gave away her last penny...

[CookieMonster]

Tithing can also be with your time and talents as long as there directed towards the church. I haven't been able to tithe financially for 2yrs but God has still provided everything i need.

[Termite]

I have to disagree with what some of you are saying about tithes--my dad works in ministry, and I've lost track of the times he's dealt with people who were suffering financially because they weren't tithing--and in every one of those cases, the people had dramatic turnarounds once they started giving again. Tithing at least 10% is necessity (even if you aren't giving to a church specifically--it's good to be tithing to any ministries you participate in or benefit from). Yes, God technically does own everything, but the giving is more for our benefit than His. Besides, how much of "God's" money do we actually use on His will and ministry?

The problem I have with tithing isn't the giving by any means. Christians absolutely need to give WAY more and almost all Americans should be giving away at least 75% of their incomes. But, if some one's making a dollar a day, it's illogical for them to give 10 cents of it to help the poor. They are the poor; that's just silly.

Yet there will always be someone poorer, will there not? And it's not 10 cents to the poor... It's 10 cents to God. Big difference. Giving back a porting that was given to us.

Another large problem with tithing is that it's a percentage, leaving people with hugely varying lifestyles. Some after-tithe incomes will be $90,000 and others $900. I just don't see how a Christian can justify living off of so much when there are others who have so little. What we need is, instead of a percentage of your income that you must give away, a set standard of living you must live by, with all excess recourses being given away. That way, everyone's needs will be met. (which should be the real goal)

Yes, but that's just the tithing. It's up to those who have more to give more. First to tithe, and then to give God an offering, whether it be to their church or a ministry they support. Yes, we are to help those who have less. Yet it is not our responsibility to fill every need.

Philippians 4:19
"And my God will meet all your needs according to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus.."

That says it right there. Can we not be a tool for Jesus, to reach and help those around us? Yes, yes, of course. HOWEVER, it is not solely our responsibility. It is also that of the poor to trust God for their needs, and to give so it will be given back unto them. Why do they need God when they have someone literally paying their way through life? Try to explain that to an unsaved individual who is living a life of ease through the kindness of another person.

I'm fine with having a car but, Christianity teaches to love your neighbor as yourself so, the first person shouldn't get their car until the last person gets their bike.

Using the car logic, not one of us should be driving. I'm sorry, but it's flawed. How is getting someone a bike better then offering them rides when they need it? Or better yet, by them a car and yourself a bike.

My family, whilst not being rich, per se, has always, ALWAYS had enough for everything, even extra. For the ministries we support monthly, tithing weekly, sponsoring children.... It all comes down to money. "Give, and it shall be given unto you." It doesn't specify what to give, or where to, does it? We give money into God's kingdom, and He shells it back out to us, blessing us with a constant resource. We then use the money He has gifted us to continually allowing us to help others(while also paying our own living costs), again through the ministries, until the cycle repeats.

John 10:10
"The thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy. I have come, that they might had life, and have it more abundantly."

The car, the food, the money for the bills, it's all provided by Jesus. Yes, through others, but also through our own faith in Him, giving back to Him what was given to us, and thus, with a steadfast heart and tithes, be given life more and more abundantly. Then, as you receive more money, you give more. To God and to those around you.

I used to worry about money, even when I was younger. Now? Not so much... I still blush when I learn that a giftcard for things I need turns out to be less, and my parents pay the extra $30, but should I? God has said He will provide. Now, that doesn't mean I can go and spend money left and right as I please, but it means that I have enough to live with and to take care of myself. Also, it means I can go see Alice in Wonderland with some friends and use some money so we can fellowship, if not at the movies but eating out occasionally, etc.



I'm sorry if this sounds all around-the-block and doesn't make a lick of sense, but there you go. (it's also 12:30.... *zzz*)

[Amethystic]

We don't need to be stingy, but we also don't need to be extravagant. Do we really need all the big car payments and mortgages? I know my family, personally, is moving into a smaller house so that we'll have more money freed up so that we might be able to go on mission trips with the ministry we're involved with.

And as for the 'give a majority of your income to the poor' idea, it's good in theory, but not always practical--we have a standard of living in North America that needs to be met, or else YOU'LL be the one asking for money. I do know, however, one of my dad's friends, who makes quite a bit of money, gives somewhere around 3/4 of her income to her missionary sister in Turkey and is able to live off of the remaining fourth. It's not necessarily a feat we should aspire to, but it's an amazing commitment on her part.

[King Butter Turtle]

I'm fine with having a car but, Christianity teaches to love your neighbor as yourself so, the first person shouldn't get their car until the last person gets their bike.

Using the car logic, not one of us should be driving. I'm sorry, but it's flawed. How is getting someone a bike better then offering them rides when they need it? Or better yet, by them a car and yourself a bike.

Well, I don't want to debate the necessity of cars again but, what I was trying to say was that we should make sure everyone's basic needs are met before we move on to luxuries. Instead of "I have food, I have a house... I have cable, I have a Lexus, now I'll feed the starving with what I have left", it should be "I'll make sure nobody's starving first, then that everybody has a house, etc." That's loving you neighbor as yourself.

My family, whilst not being rich, per se, has always, ALWAYS had enough for everything, even extra.

Really?

"Give, and it shall be given unto you." It doesn't specify what to give, or where to, does it?

Well, some places are specified; the orphans and widows for example.

John 10:10
"The thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy. I have come, that they might had life, and have it more abundantly."

The car, the food, the money for the bills, it's all provided by Jesus. Yes, through others, but also through our own faith in Him, giving back to Him what was given to us, and thus, with a steadfast heart and tithes, be given life more and more abundantly. Then, as you receive more money, you give more. To God and to those around you.

Ah! That's terrible theology!

First of all, do you really think when it says "abundantly" in that context, it means wealth? That's not what it means at all.

But, more importantly, this idea that we pay our tithe as a matter of duty so that we'll be blessed by God and if we don't pay enough we're going to be struck by lightning or something is preposterous. We don't owe God anything and God doesn't owe us anything. He's not some kind of salesman, like "if you give me ten percent of your income, I'll bless you with even more". Giving isn't an investment. You don't give so you'll get more back. You give because you're a follower of Jesus Christ and he tells us to. It's not like God's sitting up in heaven with a checklist. Because we live in a fallen world, there is poverty and as Christians it's our job to fight the evil things in our world. The church shouldn't be such an elitist club that it has to have membership dues. All should be welcome, no matter what.

And as for the 'give a majority of your income to the poor' idea, it's good in theory, but not always practical--we have a standard of living in North America that needs to be met, or else YOU'LL be the one asking for money.

I just don't understand this concept. We send off our $30 a month to Compassion International or World Vision but, then we, for some reason, think we need more. Why? Are we just that much better people because we live in America that we deserve more? Sure, our cost of living is a little higher but, like I was saying earlier, how can you justify buying cable when there are people who don't have food? It just doesn't make sense. We don't need anymore than anybody else.

I do know, however, one of my dad's friends, who makes quite a bit of money, gives somewhere around 3/4 of her income to her missionary sister in Turkey and is able to live off of the remaining fourth. It's not necessarily a feat we should aspire to, but it's an amazing commitment on her part.

Why shouldn't we aspire to it?

Matthew 19:21 - Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Luke 3:11 - John answered, "The man with two tunics should share with him who has none, and the one who has food should do the same."

This guy is, for lack of a better term, a hero of mine. He's voluntarily homeless and I think I'd like to/am called to live a life very similar to his. He really makes some wonderful points.

[Termite]

"Give, and it shall be given unto you." It doesn't specify what to give, or where to, does it?

Well, some places are specified; the orphans and widows for example.

John 10:10
"The thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy. I have come, that they might had life, and have it more abundantly."

The car, the food, the money for the bills, it's all provided by Jesus. Yes, through others, but also through our own faith in Him, giving back to Him what was given to us, and thus, with a steadfast heart and tithes, be given life more and more abundantly. Then, as you receive more money, you give more. To God and to those around you.

Ah! That's terrible theology!

First of all, do you really think when it says "abundantly" in that context, it means wealth? That's not what it means at all.

Look, I don't want to get into a debate. I just have to say this one thing: How do you know exactly what Jesus meant? More abundantly means what it is, and that is an overexcessive ammount. He didn't specify NO YOU CAN'T HAVE MONIES, he just said that we will have life more abundantly. Having life more abundantly is having it more abundantly. And that means having more then enough wealth, health, and life, cause that itself is abundant, and look again. Jesus said more abundantly.

"It's such a simple truth you need a theologian to misunderstand it!" -Brother Jesse Duplantis Humor alert, but it is true nonetheless.

[ique]

see, tithing is just a big stickler. one could go to church and be taught about the immense complexities of the bible and the languages it was written in and the figures of speech and what life was like at the time it was written and all the cultural time-relative things that we simply are not aware of when we read it and on and on and on but instead, we end up hearing about tithing =[

it's just not as important as all these other things, in my opinion. particularly if it was an old jewish law.
instead of preachers teaching what tithing was originally, what life was like then and how things worked, they just squeeze the thing into our modern lives and people go "OH OK".
we can debate its importance and the outcomes of tithing or not tithing, but it really just distracts from more important things.
besides, giving is giving. if giving becomes this mechanical system like paying one's bills, isn't some of the heart lost?

that said, i understand where those on the other side of the discussion are coming from about tithing, too.
i think you've all got the same kind of idea, but it's just presented and utilised in different ways. and because of technical differences, it's actually argued over. it seems like this happens all the time between christians. if you scrape away all the complications isn't it just giving? giving varies by the person, it can't be forced the same way upon everyone because everyone is different and gives in different ways.

welp those be my thoughts. my brain's a little foggy right now, do feel free to poke fun at my incompetence at this moment. ^-^ either my exhaustion is bringing about clarity, or it's simply conjuring up wild notions that aren't in fact true!

[StrongNChrist]

On the subject of tithing, just to point out.....unless the pastor, secretary, and other staff of the church have other jobs elsewhere that's the only way they can make an income. And the church can't pay them without tithes. And I believe tithing was mentioned in one of Paul's letters....I just don't remember exactly where

But to what you said in your first post, ique, I actually kind of ran into that problem myself. I wasn't getting anything out of the service and was more bored then anything. Thankfully we finally found a church that helped me grow in my faith. And to be honest, even at the church I go to I don't do a lot of what the other people do....I don't raise my hands during worship, I rarely clap....I don't say what the pastor tells us to say....

But back to tithing....because not many people tithe at my church - and my pastor actually hates preaching about it - my mom is probably going to lose her job. The church doesn't have enough income to pay her. And she's the only other worker besides our pastor who works there. So it is important to tithe. But not if you're not going to do it with a thankful heart.

[King Butter Turtle]

But back to tithing....because not many people tithe at my church - and my pastor actually hates preaching about it - my mom is probably going to lose her job. The church doesn't have enough income to pay her. And she's the only other worker besides our pastor who works there. So it is important to tithe. But not if you're not going to do it with a thankful heart.

If people would stop tithing maybe she could keep her job. I can't speak for ique but, I absolutely don't oppose giving. What I oppose is a guideline that makes people think they're giving enough when they're really not. Almost all Americans should be giving A LOT more than 10%.

[StrongNChrist]

If people stopped tithing she would lose her job for sure....right now it's still undeciding....I think the guideline was given mainly so people would know how much they should give...of course, if they wanted to give more, that was welcome too.
If all Americans gave more then 10%....that would be amazing....last I heard only 2% of Christians give...and that's just the Christian Americans

[American Eagle]

If people stopped tithing she would lose her job for sure....right now it's still undeciding....I think the guideline was given mainly so people would know how much they should give...

Please show me these supposed 'guidelines', if possible. In reply to tithing being mentioned in one of Paul's letters, it wasn't. There is not a single occurrence of it anywhere in the New Testament. As I've said, I'm not opposed to giving money to churches by any means, but tithing simply isn't a Biblical instruction - it was an Old Testament tax.

[StrongNChrist]

I said that wrong, originally. It's not "guidelines" exactly.....I'm just saying that giving 10% might be a certain amount instructed by God to give so people know how much they should return to God.

I wish my memory was better but I have never been able to memorize Bible verses without forgetting the book, chapter, and verses...But I do know that Paul wrote to Timothy (I think it was Timothy ) that he should give 10% of all he made to God.

[American Eagle]

I said that wrong, originally. It's not "guidelines" exactly.....I'm just saying that giving 10% might be a certain amount instructed by God to give so people know how much they should return to God.

If this might happens to be true, I'd love to see the Bible passages to back it up.

I wish my memory was better but I have never been able to memorize Bible verses without forgetting the book, chapter, and verses...But I do know that Paul wrote to Timothy (I think it was Timothy ) that he should give 10% of all he made to God.

I searched the entire New Testament, and didn't find what you are referring to. "Tithing" or related words is actually mentioned a few times in the New Testament, either along the lines of, "But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue...", or, "Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham." None of these were instructional to NT Christians, and several of them were shown in a negative light by Christ. If I am missing something or a specific verse, please feel free to point it out.

Believe it or not, I actually hate debating. I'm only interested in knowing the truth, even if that means I'm proven wrong.

[Amethystic]

Look, we can all argue for days and days about how much people should be giving and why, but we're not getting anywhere. Just stop and think: Why are we arguing? We're all writing flashy and holy-sounding words, trying to make our point, without actually trying to thoughtfully compare our views against someone else's views. Open and frank conversation between friends is one thing, but an all-out debate like this one is fruitless and only tears us apart. It's a fight that no one can win.

I appeal to you, dear brothers and sisters, by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, to live in harmony with each other. Let there be no divisions in the church. Rather, be of one mind, united in thought and purpose.

Those words are my simple and non-enigmatic plea. I never should have gotten into this debate--none of us should have. We're already being pulled apart by the world, do we need to tear ourselves from the inside?

In the end, a person's tithing is between them and God. Let God judge them on how much or little they give. We all need to stop worrying about proving each other wrong and focus on keeping our own walk with Christ in line, because it's the only walk we control.

[TigerintheShadows]

That, Amythestic, was probably one of the most well said posts I've read.

Back to the original question, there are a lot of churches today who are just lukewarm (they may or may not be the churches referred to in one of the passages in Revelation--the church in Laodicea). But not all churches are so. I used to think sitting through the sermon at my church wasn't important, that it was just something to do and I'd sit there and draw the whole time. But there's a reason they're there--so that you can get something out of church besides boredom. I can't speak for other churches; I've been to very few besides my own. But I know that my church is a place where people are passionate for God. Our pastor has encouraged us to square everything we hear--from him, our parents, anywhere--with Scripture. If a lukewarm church is your problem, then square it all with the Bible and talk to someone about it--the pastor, an associate pastor, anyone--most importantly God, because the churches the world over are parts of the body of Christ, and if they don't function properly, the whole body will suffer.

KBT mentioned earlier--it's not the customs, it's how they're done. Peope nowadays think that you have this big checklist and if you get it all done in one day, you're good. That's probably one of the biggest reasons for a church not functioning properly. But that's my opinion; we can get back to arguing now.