Dave Ramsey and Getting Rich Quick

[Josef1004]

"A text without a context, is a pretext."

BTW, it wasn't Jesus speaking.
Double BTW, When I said James 3:17, I really meant 1 John 3:17.

[SoccerLOTR]

"A text without a context, is a pretext."

BTW, it wasn't Jesus speaking.
Double BTW, When I said James 3:17, I really meant 1 John 3:17.

Whoops, yup, that was John...I didn't get around to looking that up yet... And yes, I was just having a very interesting discussion with some people about the context of another scripture...facinating and very thought-provoking.

[StrongNChrist]

There's something even more wrong with judging a person by what they do with their money

—

I don't want to judge anyone but, how one spends their money says a lot about them. It might show that you value your family, you value Christian education, you value cars more than houses, you're very conservative or liberal, you're very sloppy and don't pay much attention to things, etc. It could really say a lot of things. If some one were to look at the budget of a Christian without meeting them or knowing anything about them, they ought to realize right away that they're a Christian because the budget should represent qualities such as compassion, love, mercy and selflessness. If you were to look at the budget of a Dave Ramsey follower, you'd probably find qualities such as greed, materialism, selfishness and idolatry.

"Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?" Matthew 7:3.
You're not perfect either KBT. It isn't our job to decide who's greedy and who isn't. We don't know how they truly feel in the heart. There are rich people who might have that. There are also some who aren't. There are poor people who are like that. There are some who aren't. It's not the budget that determines that. It's the fruits. And just because they're rich doesn't make them greedy or anything. It's what they feel in their heart. It's the fruits of their labor. And you know, a lot of people give money secretly. Is it not better to not let your right hand know what your left is doing so that what you're doing is done in secret so that your Father in heaven rewards you and not the people who see your good works?
Abraham was chosen by God to be the father of the His people. Would you call him greedy, materialistic, selfish, and given to idolatry? He was rich. He was the richest man of that time almost.
And David. He was beloved of God. He had his faults. Everyone does. But those traits weren't something he always had. And he was rich. He was a king.

[King Butter Turtle]

There's something even more wrong with judging a person by what they do with their money

—

I don't want to judge anyone but, how one spends their money says a lot about them. It might show that you value your family, you value Christian education, you value cars more than houses, you're very conservative or liberal, you're very sloppy and don't pay much attention to things, etc. It could really say a lot of things. If some one were to look at the budget of a Christian without meeting them or knowing anything about them, they ought to realize right away that they're a Christian because the budget should represent qualities such as compassion, love, mercy and selflessness. If you were to look at the budget of a Dave Ramsey follower, you'd probably find qualities such as greed, materialism, selfishness and idolatry.

Probably? But aren't you judging them?

Are you saying that it's wrong to disagree with a certain position because people who subscribe to that position may have their feelings hurt?

Well put, StrongNChrist. The bottom line is that the command to help the poor, was given to the poor, the common people. This is from Luke 3, the same passage of Scripture that was quoted from, I think, in an effort to prove that it's wrong to be rich and not "give it all away". But the fact on the matter is that the rich aren't being addressed here at all!
It's easy to point fingers at the rich and say, "How dare they keep all that when there are little children starving in Africa? They're supposed to be sharing, since they're so rich. They could feed a whole village; Shame on them buying champagne every sunday!" But the message to the rich was never to feed the poor.
Does this mean that millionaires are exempt from the command to show compassion and share? By no means! (James 3:17)
But the fact is that the command to show such compassion comes right down, and perhaps even more so on account of familiarity, to those who have been blessed simply with an extra T-shirt or piece of chicken. Even if that extra shirt, pair of shoes, food, or etc. is a rare bonus in my economy, if I withhold from giving, or at least lending, to someone I find in real need, I have to admit I'm just as much at fault as I would be if I were a multi-billionaire. It's "He that has two tunics let him share", not "He that has two hundred tunics let him share."

Are you seriously trying to say that only the poor were commanded to help the poor and if you're rich enough, you have no obligation to help the needy? I don't even know how to respond to that. Oh my word!

"Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?" Matthew 7:3.
You're not perfect either KBT. It isn't our job to decide who's greedy and who isn't. We don't know how they truly feel in the heart. There are rich people who might have that. There are also some who aren't. There are poor people who are like that. There are some who aren't. It's not the budget that determines that. It's the fruits.

But, with something as concrete and tangible as money management, there will be outward signs of one's inner attitudes/emotional states. (that's not the right word but, I mean like greed, compassion... whatever)

You're saying that it's possible to be very very wealthy and keep it all for yourself and yet not be greedy. But, Matthew 6:21 says, that if you are very very wealthy and keep it all for yourself, your heart is only thinking of yourself. (aka selfishness) So, how can you be selfish but, not greedy?

And just because they're rich doesn't make them greedy or anything. It's what they feel in their heart. It's the fruits of their labor.

So, for what reason other than greed, would a wealthy person choose to keep their wealth for themselves?

Abraham was chosen by God to be the father of the His people. Would you call him greedy, materialistic, selfish, and given to idolatry? He was rich. He was the richest man of that time almost.
And David. He was beloved of God. He had his faults. Everyone does. But those traits weren't something he always had. And he was rich. He was a king.

That's in the old testament. The reason the New Testament Church (us) doesn't have a king like the Israelites did, is because we have the Messiah; the King of Kings to guide us and teach us. One of many differences between all the kings of the Old Testament and the king of the New Testament (Jesus); the king of the New Testament was a homeless guy.

[StrongNChrist]

No, I'm saying it's possible to be wealthy and not be greedy. I give but I never let anyone know how much I give. I give how much God wants me to give, no more, no less. Maybe God doesn't want someone who's really wealthy to give a whole bunch. Maybe He'd rather that person save and invest wisely so that their family is well provided for.

To invest wisely to provide for the family and make sure the family is taken care of. I save the money I earn. I have saved over 1000 dollars. To me that's a lot Would you consider me greedy and selfish for keeping it rather then giving it away?

And I can get NT examples if you like. Those were were off the top of my head. What about that dude who climbed a tree and whose name I can't spell? He was wealthy and sure he paid back what he stole but it never said he gave all his money away. There are others but honestly the only names that I know without having to look it up are in the OT

These "followers of this person who are greedy and selfish" to you...do you see how they live their every day life? You said that you can just look at their budget and see if they're greedy or not. That is not seeing the emotional states as you put it. You can't look at how much money a person has or what they do with it and decide if that person is indeed selfish or not. You have to look at their entire life. Have you done that?

[Josef1004]

Are you seriously trying to say that only the poor were commanded to help the poor and if you're rich enough, you have no obligation to help the needy? I don't even know how to respond to that. Oh my word!

You've read my post-- (I'm hoping, in its entirety). If you still don't know how to respond,
I'll give you some help. Respond by believing what the Bible says, and live accordingly.

[SoccerLOTR]

I once again reference my Adventures in Odyssey characters and say to use Whit as an example. I even just listened to the episode that was on the radio that talked about whit's money and being wise about it. Saving some money isn't necessarily being greedy. It is being responsible with what God has given you. And when you have that money, not using it on selfish purposes (being greedy), but keeping it stored up, God will lead you to give it when the need arises. Like StrongNChrist said...it's a matter of the heart. Are you willing to part with it or not? For example, the rich young ruler from the Bible...when he couldn't give it up for Jesus, it showed where his priorities were. But if someone has money that they are completely willing to give up for Jesus, it's ok to have some money in store...so long as when God wants them to use it, they will give freely of the abundance that He has given to them. Some Christians are called to give. In Romans 12, where it talks about the Body of Christ and how each member has different gifts, it says if your gift is giving, give generously. Seems to imply that some people have more ability and opportunity to give than others. Often it is those whom God has blessed with money that provide a lot of help to the poor, or provide money for mission trips, or scholarships for those who need, etc. Unfortunately, societies function on money, and sometimes money is needed to do certain things, and if there aren't any Christians with money, it can be difficult to get stuff done. Which is where the wealthier people should step in and use what they have for God.

[American Eagle]

For the record, this thread was split from "Church Burns Bibles, Christian Books, Music". Some of the posts/post titles may not make sense.

[SoccerLOTR]

For the record, this thread was split from "Church Burns Bibles, Christian Books, Music". Some of the posts/post titles may not make sense.

Lol, yeah, I was startled to see a brand new topic already have 2 pages, all written within...a very short time period since I last saw the Odyssey church screen...makes sense now.

[King Butter Turtle]

No, I'm saying it's possible to be wealthy and not be greedy.

I just don't understand this. If you have a large income (maybe you're a businessman, lawyer, or maybe an American) and you're fully aware that there are people who desperately need it, yet you keep it for yourself to buy nice cars and boats and outdoor kitchens, how can you not be greedy?

Greed - A selfish or excessive desire for more than is needed or deserved, especially of money, wealth, food, or other possessions.

If you live a wealthy lifestyle, you're saying that you desire money (or, more specifically all the stuff that you buy with money) more than you desire to help those in desperate need. Thus, you have "a selfish or excessive desire for more than is needed or deserved".

I give but I never let anyone know how much I give. I give how much God wants me to give, no more, no less. Maybe God doesn't want someone who's really wealthy to give a whole bunch. Maybe He'd rather that person save and invest wisely so that their family is well provided for.

So, how do we know how much God wants us to give?

To invest wisely to provide for the family and make sure the family is taken care of. I save the money I earn. I have saved over 1000 dollars. To me that's a lot Would you consider me greedy and selfish for keeping it rather then giving it away?

While there is something to be said for providing for the basic needs of one's family, whatever happened to loving your neighbor as yourself?

And I can get NT examples if you like. Those were were off the top of my head. What about that dude who climbed a tree and whose name I can't spell? He was wealthy and sure he paid back what he stole but it never said he gave all his money away.

—

There are others but honestly the only names that I know without having to look it up are in the OT

Thanks for helping me prove my point.

These "followers of this person who are greedy and selfish" to you...do you see how they live their every day life? You said that you can just look at their budget and see if they're greedy or not. That is not seeing the emotional states as you put it. You can't look at how much money a person has or what they do with it and decide if that person is indeed selfish or not. You have to look at their entire life. Have you done that?

—

Based on this verse, if some one spends money (treasure) in a selfish/greedy manner, they have selfishness/greed in their heart. Thus, with regards to this topic, specifically, we can tell the inward attitude based on the outward action. It's as simple as that, no?

Are you seriously trying to say that only the poor were commanded to help the poor and if you're rich enough, you have no obligation to help the needy? I don't even know how to respond to that. Oh my word!

You've read my post-- (I'm hoping, in its entirety). If you still don't know how to respond,
I'll give you some help. Respond by believing what the Bible says, and live accordingly.

So, I've already given a bunch of verses on money but, if you want more that are specifically spoken to/about rich people, I could cite verses like Mark 10:17-31, Luke 12:13-21 and others. But, if you're such a Biblical literalist that you think you can "get out of" a commandment (for lack of a better term) to "any man with two coats" simply buy obtaining a third coat, you'll probably just whip out your Greek dictionary and explain to me how I've misinterpreted everything so, I don't really want to do that.

At the end of the day, it's a very spiritual issue. I read the words of Jesus and the New Testament and over and over and over I read about giving to the poor and the orphans and widows and loving your neighbor as yourself and trusting God to provide and not clinging to material possessions. Then, I look at American culture; the absolute richest the nation the planet has ever known; a country that has so much food that eats all it possibly can and becomes the fattest nation on earth, spends the most on weight loss of any country on earth, uses food to fuel it's automobiles, uses food to let its cats poop in comfort, and then it still has so much food left, it THROWS AWAY $50 billion worth of food every year, all while 30,000 children starve to death every day! Then, I hear quote/unquote Christian talk show hosts like Dave Ramsey say things like,

If we save money and we want to buy something really nice like a leather couch or a boat or something that you really want; you save up and pay for it, you just buy the boat. It’s not a problem.

I see a MAJOR issue!

I once again reference my Adventures in Odyssey characters and say to use Whit as an example.

As much as I love Whit, I think Jesus is probably a better example.

Like StrongNChrist said...it's a matter of the heart. Are you willing to part with it or not? For example, the rich young ruler from the Bible...when he couldn't give it up for Jesus, it showed where his priorities were. But if someone has money that they are completely willing to give up for Jesus, it's ok to have some money in store...so long as when God wants them to use it, they will give freely of the abundance that He has given to them.

In debating this issue in the past, this idea has come up quite a bit. I just don't understand it.

1. I have lots and lots of money!
2. I'm willing to give it up if necessary.
3. 30,000 innocent children starve to death every day and 4.5 billion people in our world our lost and hopeless as they haven't met Jesus and money is desperately needed for all sorts of things all over the world. AKA - IT'S NECESSARY!!!
4. I refuse to give and keep all my money to buy electric golf carts.
5. Huh?

Isn't the fallacy obvious? If you're willing to give it all up when you need to, why wouldn't you when it's desperately needed?

For the record, this thread was split from "Church Burns Bibles, Christian Books, Music". Some of the posts/post titles may not make sense.

Good decision to split it but, can I complain about the title? First of all Ramsey is misspelled. Also, we really haven't been discussing Getting Rich Quick at all. But, whatever...

[SoccerLOTR]

StrongNChrist wrote:
No, I'm saying it's possible to be wealthy and not be greedy.

I just don't understand this. If you have a large income (maybe you're a businessman, lawyer, or maybe an American) and you're fully aware that there are people who desperately need it, yet you keep it for yourself to buy nice cars and boats and outdoor kitchens, how can you not be greedy?

wiktionary wrote:
Greed - A selfish or excessive desire for more than is needed or deserved, especially of money, wealth, food, or other possessions.

If you live a wealthy lifestyle, you're saying that you desire money (or, more specifically all the stuff that you buy with money) more than you desire to help those in desperate need. Thus, you have "a selfish or excessive desire for more than is needed or deserved".

Ok, first off, there's a difference between buying lavish gifts for yourself, and putting the money away for when it is needed. If you are buying a billion "toys" for yourself, obviously you're using it for selfish motives, and being "greedy". A "wealthy lifestyle" is different than being wealthy. Wealth is simply a measure of how much you have...a lifestyle is Godly or ungodly based on what you do with your life, including your money.

1. I have lots and lots of money!
2. I'm willing to give it up if necessary.
3. 30,000 innocent children starve to death every day and 4.5 billion people in our world our lost and hopeless as they haven't met Jesus and money is desperately needed for all sorts of things all over the world. AKA - IT'S NECESSARY!!!
4. I refuse to give and keep all my money to buy electric golf carts.
5. Huh?

Isn't the fallacy obvious? If you're willing to give it all up when you need to, why wouldn't you when it's desperately needed?

I think you are making some inaccurate assumptions. First, I never stated anything like #4...that is obviously ridiculous. #3...money is ALWAYS necessary...it is up to God where He wants you to spend it. He never asks us to spend on frivolous things, such as your example of "golf carts" but there are MANY places and times where it is needed. We shouldn't just throw all our money into something without careful consideration and prayer. Yes, people need it all over the world...but where is it BEST put to use at this time? SO, where does this leave us?

1. I have a great job/inherited a bunch of money and now have more than enough for me and my family.
2. I am willing to give this money up.
3. I am going to pray on this and see how God wants to use this money.
4. I see God leading me to give this money to provide clothes for X, Y, and Z homeless shelters and orphanages. OR God is leading me to give this money to support this mission in Africa. OR God is leading me to give to the church, who will use it to help another church in need. OR God is telling me to wait and continue to save this money, for He has a specific plan for how this money will be used in the future, because at that point a very large sum will be needed all at once, and it will be my duty to give it then to provide for that need.

As you see, your example and my example are very different. I am in NO WAY advocating money for your own selfish desires. But having money in and of itself is not a bad thing, so long as you are seeking God's will on the right time and place to use it.

—

These verses do not say not to be wealthy...but just to not put stock in your wealth, and to use it for the good of others--to be generous with it.
Once again, I am not advocating a wealthy lifestyle, as you put it, nor do I support Dave Ramsey, from what I see him saying (don't know much about him though), and I DO agree that the way America lives is ridiculous, and it is wrong to be pampering your pets to death while people are starving all over the world. But you CAN have money and NOT use it for selfish gain. Oh, and thanks for not reading the second half of my comment referencing Romans 12. It goes along with what I just said.

[Steve]

Dave Ramsey isn't evil. The local Christian Homeschool group in my area is hosting the Financial Peace class that I attend. What he's teaching people is that they should be good stewards of their money and what God's given them. He's teaching them not to love money, but to use it wisely. When he says things about Christians being stupid with money, he's right. Way too many people think that to be a good Christian you should make an example of yourself by putting yourself into debt, bettiong your house repossesed and living in a box, preaching. Now, that's stupidity and bigotry, there. Ramsey teaches that we should "Live like no one else so later we can live like no one else." We don't take out loans and we pay cash for stuff so later we don't have to preach in a cardboard box. He teaches to tithe and give. So I don't think he's wrong. BTW: I've never heard him swear.

(I might have repeated some stuff in this post because it was a bit TL;DR, I want to smash your soapboxes, people. = )

[StrongNChrist]

Greed - A selfish or excessive desire for more than is needed or deserved, especially of money, wealth, food, or other possessions.

greed is the want for more then needed. It says nothing about having it. Greed would be something like doing more then you should to get as much money as possible and hoarding it. It's nothing about wisely investing money and letting it grow.

So, how do we know how much God wants us to give?

God tends to let us know. At least He does for me

Thanks for helping me prove my point.

That's not proving your point. that is I have a faulty memory, too sick and tired to look it up, so I can't just think of names off the top of my head like I did with David and Abraham.

Based on this verse, if some one spends money (treasure) in a selfish/greedy manner, they have selfishness/greed in their heart. Thus, with regards to this topic, specifically, we can tell the inward attitude based on the outward action. It's as simple as that, no?

What would you define as a selfish/greedy manner? Because from the sound of it, it sounds like your opinion of it is spending anything on yourself. Tell me, is it wrong to spend money on a car that works? Is it wrong to save up money for the future? Why is it so wrong to have money? Money is not evil. Sure, you help your neighbor. But that doesn't mean giving away everything you own away. It doesn't mean being unwise with how you spend your money. And remember, you don't know how they spend their money for sure. You just assume they keep it all because they're followers of this person we're talking about. You don't know my budget. I said I have over 1000 dollars saved. Does that mean you're going to assume that I'm being selfish and greedy?

If we save money and we want to buy something really nice like a leather couch or a boat or something that you really want; you save up and pay for it, you just buy the boat. It’s not a problem.

Sounds to me he's more saying save your money for this item rather then get into debt to pay for it... But what's so bad with owning a boat? What's so bad with owning a couch?
When you have guests to your house they don't see your budget. They don't see how much money you give away. What they see is how your house looks. Is it clean? Does it have nice furniture? Ratty furniture? Just like what you say and how you dress represent yourself, your family, and God, so does the looks of your house.

In debating this issue in the past, this idea has come up quite a bit. I just don't understand it.

1. I have lots and lots of money!
2. I'm willing to give it up if necessary.
3. 30,000 innocent children starve to death every day and 4.5 billion people in our world our lost and hopeless as they haven't met Jesus and money is desperately needed for all sorts of things all over the world. AKA - IT'S NECESSARY!!!
4. I refuse to give and keep all my money to buy electric golf carts.
5. Huh?

Isn't the fallacy obvious? If you're willing to give it all up when you need to, why wouldn't you when it's desperately needed?

We're talking about giving from the heart. Not being willing to give it up if needed but not wanting to so you can spend it on golf carts.
The point is are you willing to give your money if God asks you to. The rich young man from the Bible wasn't. That meant he loved his money more then he loved God. The whole point of what we're saying is which do you love more, God or money. That's what the Bible talks about too. The love of money is the root of evil. not having money.
For me, personally.....I have saved nearly everything I've earned over the past 6 years, besides the money I feel that God wants me to give back to the church. I have gained over 1000 dollars. I do not feel like I need to give it away to feed the hungry children. Yes they need money so they can eat. But personally for myself I feel that not only is it wiser but also that God wants me to save that money. If He wanted me to I'd give that money away in a heart beat. But I have not felt any calling from Him to do so so I don't. I'd rather do as God says then what man says.

[Josef1004]

So, I've already given a bunch of verses on money but, if you want more that are specifically spoken to/about rich people, I could cite verses like Mark 10:17-31, Luke 12:13-21 and others.

Go for it, Bro.

[King Butter Turtle]

StrongNChrist wrote:
No, I'm saying it's possible to be wealthy and not be greedy.

I just don't understand this. If you have a large income (maybe you're a businessman, lawyer, or maybe an American) and you're fully aware that there are people who desperately need it, yet you keep it for yourself to buy nice cars and boats and outdoor kitchens, how can you not be greedy?

wiktionary wrote:
Greed - A selfish or excessive desire for more than is needed or deserved, especially of money, wealth, food, or other possessions.

If you live a wealthy lifestyle, you're saying that you desire money (or, more specifically all the stuff that you buy with money) more than you desire to help those in desperate need. Thus, you have "a selfish or excessive desire for more than is needed or deserved".

Ok, first off, there's a difference between buying lavish gifts for yourself, and putting the money away for when it is needed. If you are buying a billion "toys" for yourself, obviously you're using it for selfish motives, and being "greedy".

I completely agree. Dave Ramsey, however, does not. I've heard him many times on the air suggest that people buy very expensive "toys" including but not limited to, boats, jet skis, lake houses, plastic surgery, 6 figure pianos and luxurious Caribbean cruises.

A "wealthy lifestyle" is different than being wealthy. Wealth is simply a measure of how much you have...a lifestyle is Godly or ungodly based on what you do with your life, including your money.

I don't understand. Correct me if I'm wrong but, you seem to be saying that one can live a Godly lifestyle with a large amount of money saved, as long as they don't spend it on lots of lavish luxuries. To that, I would ask why this hypothetical rich guy was keeping so much? For what is he saving?

#3...money is ALWAYS necessary...it is up to God where He wants you to spend it.

Your point seems rather unconnected to mine. Yes, it is up to God where he wants us to (I assume you mean give). What does that have to do with the fact that there are always people in desperate need of resources?

He never asks us to spend on frivolous things, such as your example of "golf carts" but there are MANY places and times where it is needed. We shouldn't just throw all our money into something without careful consideration and prayer. Yes, people need it all over the world...but where is it BEST put to use at this time? SO, where does this leave us?

1. I have a great job/inherited a bunch of money and now have more than enough for me and my family.
2. I am willing to give this money up.
3. I am going to pray on this and see how God wants to use this money.
4. I see God leading me to give this money to provide clothes for X, Y, and Z homeless shelters and orphanages. OR God is leading me to give this money to support this mission in Africa. OR God is leading me to give to the church, who will use it to help another church in need. OR God is telling me to wait and continue to save this money, for He has a specific plan for how this money will be used in the future, because at that point a very large sum will be needed all at once, and it will be my duty to give it then to provide for that need.

As you see, your example and my example are very different. I am in NO WAY advocating money for your own selfish desires. But having money in and of itself is not a bad thing, so long as you are seeking God's will on the right time and place to use it.

Overall, I agree with most of what your saying; that we shouldn't spend money selfishly. But, your whole thing about how God has a specific purpose for each dollar that we give and consequently we should save all of the money we get so we can pray and be very very careful in giving it, is kind of crazy. God doesn't completely run the whole world. (he could if he wanted to but, he's given us a free will) You seem to be suggesting that we're all just puppets and we give whatever/whenever/to whomever God tells us and that's that. Of course we should be careful and pray about it and everything but, in the end, you have to make a decision. You can't just wait for some kind of divine message before you put anything in the plate. We should read the Bible and look to the example of Jesus for guidance in our giving and there you'll find giving freely, regularly, cheerfully and sacrificially.

But you CAN have money and NOT use it for selfish gain.

Absolutely! I never said that no one can own anything or anything like that. I believe Christians should use all the money they get as God would use it. (it is all his after all) Basically, this consists of providing for the needs (physical, spiritual, emotional, social) of the world. Now, that includes yourself so, there's nothing wrong with using the money that's been given to you (income) to provide food/shelter/clothing/etc. for you and your family. But, anything beyond your basic needs should be given to provide for others basic needs. Ramsey, on the other hand, has this totally messed up idea that we are to give 10% of our money to our local church and spend the other 90% on us. And, that the more responsibly we spend all that money ourselves (saving up to purchase a huge house, giving your kids gross amounts of money for college so they can play beer-pong, and saving up disgusting amounts of money for you so, you can play golf and garden in your old age), the more with which God will "bless us".

Dave Ramsey isn't evil. The local Christian Homeschool group in my area is hosting the Financial Peace class that I attend. What he's teaching people is that they should be good stewards of their money and what God's given them. He's teaching them not to love money, but to use it wisely.

Like spending $20 on budgeting envelopes with his face on them!

Way too many people think that to be a good Christian you should make an example of yourself by putting yourself into debt, bettiong your house repossesed and living in a box, preaching. Now, that's stupidity and bigotry, there.

Um... I don't know of anyone who thinks that. Also, bigotry?

Ramsey teaches that we should "Live like no one else so later we can live like no one else." We don't take out loans and we pay cash for stuff so later we don't have to preach in a cardboard box.

Preaching from a cardboard box? You do realize that... Jesus Christ did that, right? And John the Baptist and all the disciples and Paul and a bunch of other people in the Bible and more modern people like Saint Francis of Assisi and Mother Teresa, the list goes on...

Again, though, I'm not saying we all have to live on nothing but, it should never be our goal to amass wealth.

BTW: I've never heard him swear.

It depends on how you define swearing but, he does regularly use words like "freaking", "pee off", and "poop" (apparently, you can't even use those last two on the ToO so, they're certainly not appropriate for national radio ) not to mention using the Lord's name in vein, which he tends to do quite a bit.

(I might have repeated some stuff in this post because it was a bit TL;DR, I want to smash your soapboxes, people. = )

Maybe, if we'd have completed baby step 4, we could have better boxes from which to preach.

Greed - A selfish or excessive desire for more than is needed or deserved, especially of money, wealth, food, or other possessions.

greed is the want for more then needed. It says nothing about having it. Greed would be something like doing more then you should to get as much money as possible and hoarding it. It's nothing about wisely investing money and letting it grow.

If you "have it" (more money than is necessary to meet you and your family's basic needs), there are several options of reasons you do;

1. You can't give it away. (i.e. - an abusive relationship in which one spouse controls all of the finances)
2. You're unaware that others need it.
3. You don't know how to give it away.
4. You want it.

Option 1 is obviously an exception. Options 2 and 3 are all but nonexistent. That leaves only option 4 for why some one would have an excessive amount of money. Thus, if you have an excessive amount of money, you want an excessive amount of money. Therefore, if you have an excessive amount of money, you're greedy.

So, how do we know how much God wants us to give?

God tends to let us know. At least He does for me

Isn't one of the primary methods God uses to speak to us, the Bible (especially Jesus)? Aren't we supposed to look to scriptures (again, especially, the words and actions of Jesus) to find out how we are supposed to live our lives. Of course, we should also pray (and seek wise council, or whatever else) but, if you think you're hearing from God and he's contradicting what he's already said (Jesus), you should definitely carefully reconsider if that's truly a message from God.

Based on this verse, if some one spends money (treasure) in a selfish/greedy manner, they have selfishness/greed in their heart. Thus, with regards to this topic, specifically, we can tell the inward attitude based on the outward action. It's as simple as that, no?

What would you define as a selfish/greedy manner? Because from the sound of it, it sounds like your opinion of it is spending anything on yourself. Tell me, is it wrong to spend money on a car that works? Is it wrong to save up money for the future? Why is it so wrong to have money? Money is not evil. Sure, you help your neighbor. But that doesn't mean giving away everything you own away. It doesn't mean being unwise with how you spend your money. And remember, you don't know how they spend their money for sure. You just assume they keep it all because they're followers of this person we're talking about. You don't know my budget.

Not to skip over this but, I pretty much already responded to it so... see above.

I said I have over 1000 dollars saved. Does that mean you're going to assume that I'm being selfish and greedy?

Saving $1000 is baby step one of Dave Ramsey's program. I'm pretty much o.k. with baby steps one through three (getting out of debt and establishing an emergency fund) with only a few relatively minor critiques. It's more so the end goals of his program with which I have a problem. So, to answer your question, no, I don't believe you're being selfish and greedy to have $1000. I, obviously don't know the specifics of your finances and the details are, of course, personal information but, based on my perspective of the Biblical teachings on the subject, $1,000 seems reasonable.

If we save money and we want to buy something really nice like a leather couch or a boat or something that you really want; you save up and pay for it, you just buy the boat. It’s not a problem.

Sounds to me he's more saying save your money for this item rather then get into debt to pay for it... But what's so bad with owning a boat? What's so bad with owning a couch?
When you have guests to your house they don't see your budget. They don't see how much money you give away. What they see is how your house looks. Is it clean? Does it have nice furniture? Ratty furniture? Just like what you say and how you dress represent yourself, your family, and God, so does the looks of your house.

Are you trying to say that as Christians, we are supposed to impress people? Also, are you really making the argument that one must own a leather couch in order to seat guests? If you'd really like me too, I could give you a large list of other seating options but, I think we should be able to agree that that's just an excuse; you're trying to squeeze the teachings of Jesus into an Americanized world view.

I do not feel like I need to give it away to feed the hungry children. Yes they need money so they can eat. But personally for myself I feel that not only is it wiser but also that God wants me to save that money.

You're saying that God would rather you have a large savings account then help feed starving children? That seems to contradict nearly everything I've ever been taught about Christianity. Please explain.

P.S. - It's rather ironic, the crazy amounts of ToO money I've been racking up for all the super long posts in this thread. This one was $22.90! I don't want to keep it for myself, of course, so, if anybody wants any, just PM me.

[Josef1004]

Question: What did Jesus tell the little man whose name we don't know how to spell?

[SoccerLOTR]

I completely agree. Dave Ramsey, however, does not. I've heard him many times on the air suggest that people buy very expensive "toys" including but not limited to, boats, jet skis, lake houses, plastic surgery, 6 figure pianos and luxurious Caribbean cruises.

Ok, as I said before, I don't know much about Dave Ramsey, and therefore don't know if I agree with him...so please don't judge me as if I am agreeing with him.

SoccerLOTR wrote:
A "wealthy lifestyle" is different than being wealthy. Wealth is simply a measure of how much you have...a lifestyle is Godly or ungodly based on what you do with your life, including your money.


I don't understand. Correct me if I'm wrong but, you seem to be saying that one can live a Godly lifestyle with a large amount of money saved, as long as they don't spend it on lots of lavish luxuries. To that, I would ask why this hypothetical rich guy was keeping so much? For what is he saving?

Once again, please take what I am saying in my entire post in its context. I did not say that we shouldn't use the money we have...simply that we should be wise about where we spend it. The hypothetical rich guy scenario was to say that he was not willing to put Jesus above his money...and therefore he would not give it away...and therefore could not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. So I am not saying to be like the rich guy, as he was not willing to give it up and use it for God.

Overall, I agree with most of what your saying; that we shouldn't spend money selfishly. But, your whole thing about how God has a specific purpose for each dollar that we give and consequently we should save all of the money we get so we can pray and be very very careful in giving it, is kind of crazy. God doesn't completely run the whole world. (he could if he wanted to but, he's given us a free will) You seem to be suggesting that we're all just puppets and we give whatever/whenever/to whomever God tells us and that's that. Of course we should be careful and pray about it and everything but, in the end, you have to make a decision. You can't just wait for some kind of divine message before you put anything in the plate. We should read the Bible and look to the example of Jesus for guidance in our giving and there you'll find giving freely, regularly, cheerfully and sacrificially.

I was not intending to sound as if we are puppets or that God has a specific purpose for every dollar. However, should we not seek His guidance on where the BEST place to use our money is? It seems that He would know, considering that He knows everything that's going on in the world...and yes, there are times when we just need to step out and use the money where we think is best, and trust that He'll work the details out. But sometimes I think He does have a plan, and if you don't do it, He'll find someone else to do it. Sometimes saving it for something in the future is good. For example: My former pastor and his wife saved up a good amount of money a while ago, knowing that there was something in the future that they would need it for. They bought a big house (4 bedrooms when they only had one daughter still living at home) which would appear to be greedy and all for show, if you look at it from an outside perspective. At the same time, they began the process to adopt 4 kids from Haiti. The large house? To give the kids a good home that they'd all fit in. The large amount of money? The majorly huge cost to adopt the kids (particularly out-of-country adoptions take a boatload of money) and a little extra to make sure they could provide for the kids. If they hadn't saved and "hoarded" a bunch of money, they wouldn't have been able to do ANY of that. So were they wrong in saving the money up for years and years until a plan was formed for what to do with it? Btw, now they are of average middle-class status, and both parents are working in order to keep the kids fed and clothed...they don't have a bunch of gadgets or spoil the kids...and they're happy and content and know that they've done exactly what they wanted to do with the money, using it for God. Yes, people were in need all that time they were saving up...there are ALWAYS people in need, but in this case, the people they were choosing to help were 4 orphans from Haiti, starving for food and love, and they were able to provide for both, by, according to your logic, neglecting the needs of people around the world that they could have been giving to for all the years they were saving.

Oh, and by the way...saving money for college is not wasting your money...it is preparing for the future. And not all college kids spend college drunk and messing their lives up. Just for the record.

[StrongNChrist]

Are you trying to say that as Christians, we are supposed to impress people?

Not impress them. But we do represent Christ. If we represent Him in a poor way do you think people will want to know more about him? And actually I was trying to say it doesn't hurt to own a nice couch over a ratty and torn one

You're saying that God would rather you have a large savings account then help feed starving children? That seems to contradict nearly everything I've ever been taught about Christianity. Please explain.

Just for the record, I plan on sponsering a child someday when my income becomes steady...But as for what you're saying...I believe that God is calling me to save money. The reason? So one day I can fulfil the calling He has given me and move to a third world nation so I can provide medicine and help for the people who have it. So, yes, I believe He wants me to save the money. Now I do give Him back some of it and when I feel a nudge from Him to give I do so. But at the same time I still save. Plus I'm saving up for a car.

[Josef1004]

Who needs a car? You should think of all the people who don't even own shoes. What do you think would happen if all God's children stopped being content with their shoes and started lusting after cars?

[King Butter Turtle]

Question: What did Jesus tell the little man whose name we don't know how to spell?

Um...

—

I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Overall, I agree with most of what your saying; that we shouldn't spend money selfishly. But, your whole thing about how God has a specific purpose for each dollar that we give and consequently we should save all of the money we get so we can pray and be very very careful in giving it, is kind of crazy. God doesn't completely run the whole world. (he could if he wanted to but, he's given us a free will) You seem to be suggesting that we're all just puppets and we give whatever/whenever/to whomever God tells us and that's that. Of course we should be careful and pray about it and everything but, in the end, you have to make a decision. You can't just wait for some kind of divine message before you put anything in the plate. We should read the Bible and look to the example of Jesus for guidance in our giving and there you'll find giving freely, regularly, cheerfully and sacrificially.

I was not intending to sound as if we are puppets or that God has a specific purpose for every dollar. However, should we not seek His guidance on where the BEST place to use our money is? It seems that He would know, considering that He knows everything that's going on in the world...and yes, there are times when we just need to step out and use the money where we think is best, and trust that He'll work the details out. But sometimes I think He does have a plan, and if you don't do it, He'll find someone else to do it.

Yes, the specifics of which charities/causes/whatever you give to and which stores/companies you spend at for yourself, for that matter, is all a between-you-and-God thing. But, as for the general, big-picture Christian philosophy on money, we are to look to the scriptures (especially the word's and actions of Jesus).

—

As for the story about your pastor, he wasn't saving for himself so, that's not really what we're talking about.

and by the way...saving money for college is not wasting your money...it is preparing for the future. And not all college kids spend college drunk and messing their lives up. Just for the record.

Well, if it's for something specific that you know God's called you to do, that's one thing. But, if you're spending tens of thousands of dollars to get a degree in general studies because that's what all your friends did and then you go on to become a stay-at-home mom and never use it, in a world in which hundreds of millions, maybe even billions of people don't have even have a high school diploma, that's wrong! Also, it's different if the student is paying for themselves. Ramsey suggests that you set aside 50/60 grand per kid from the time they're babies on the expectation that they'll go to college.

So, um, what we told our children was that they had to go to school and that it really wasn’t an option and, um, so, we brainwashed ‘em. ‘This is your college fund. This is your college fund. This is your college fund. This is your college fund. This is your college fund.’ And, that’s why- you know, that’s why an E.S.A. makes sense.

Are you trying to say that as Christians, we are supposed to impress people?

Not impress them. But we do represent Christ. If we represent Him in a poor way do you think people will want to know more about him? And actually I was trying to say it doesn't hurt to own a nice couch over a ratty and torn one

It hurts the people who will never own any kind of a couch their whole life.

Also, we have to represent Christianity with fancy stuff so that people will want to know more about God??? Are you serious? You know, in Luke 14:25-35, Jesus talks about the cost of being a disciple. There's some really tough stuff in there, including that we must "give up everything we have" to be disciples. But, the setting isn't a conference full of people who've been Christians for many years in some Church basement somewhere. No, Jesus is out on the streets recruiting disciples. This is how he describes discipleship to non-Christians. He says, "hey, if you want to follow me you must give up everything". He doesn't candy-coat the gospel and say, "you see this nice couch; you know you could have one of these if you repented of your sins".

Who needs a car? You should think of all the people who don't even own shoes. What do you think would happen if all God's children stopped being content with their shoes and started lusting after cars?

I sense sarcasm but... you make a decent point.