Heaven and Hell

[Danielle Abigail Maxwell]

Peter's Dream was in the new testament. And I also said it had nothing to do with unclean or clean meat.
I'm Adventist, so I do believe that the 10 commandments are still in play. The rest of the laws - people like to pull homosexuality out of their bums and I LAUGH. Totally besides all points.

If parables are to be examples, as I think we both can agree on, then I think what it is meant to say is that it is better to be poor and believe in God then to be rich and selfish and squander your life so that when the time comes, you will enter Hell. I'm not entirely sure it says that you go immediately there.

[John Chrysostom]

You're right it doesn't give a time line, I would ask you again why do you think time passes the same after death than it does here on earth? You said "He could stop reproduction, and wait until we all died. Then His job would be done." That makes it seem like God is experiencing time the same as us, where do you find that?

[ric]

What I just want to know, is it enough to believe in God, trust in Him, accept Christ's sacrifice, believe in Heaven and Hell, and still be accepted from you people? Or do I have to be perfect in your eyes? *this was sincerely asked in a curious nature. *

I think we're just having a nice little conversation here, correct? Has anyone said anything to question your faith? I don't believe so.

To answer your question, it most definitely is enough. That's the main reason I'm non-denominational. The other stuff really doesn't matter a bit.

[Danielle Abigail Maxwell]

Okay. Just checking ric. lol. Yeah, someone said that, that all the little stuff doesn't matter. I do agree, but it isn't it in the end, that the little stuff that we stand upon, defines who we are? Not that it should matter upon salvation - that is complete belief in God and accepting of Christ's sacrifice. I think we all want the whole picture though.


Ayn Rand:
That was an example of what God could do. If the belief is that when you go to Heaven when you die, then why must Jesus come a 2nd time? He is coming - the Bible says it. But if everyone will be separated into their rightful places for all eternity when they die on earth, I don't see His 2nd Coming as necessary. If you go to Hell or Heaven, then why must Christ come again if that is what happens? It isn't a question of time.

Yes, it says in the Bible, a day to us is like a thousand years to God, and a day to him is like a thousand years to us. But I don't see how that plays into, uh, this conversation. Or maybe I'm just confused.

[John Chrysostom]

The Second Coming is about the resurrection of the body and the transformation of the earth from it's current sinful state to unite us with Christ. It has to do with time because you seem to be saying that when we die we're still a part of time somehow, what I'm saying is that the dead are with God right now because they have been re-united with Him and so are also out of time.

[Danielle Abigail Maxwell]

Oh. Yeah. That's probably where the problem lies. Why would you go to Heaven and then come back to your body? That doesn't make any sense! And go to Hell, knowing your fate, and come back to your body. Because everyone will be resurrected. Doesn't a parable say that Christ will separate everyone out to his left and right, the ones that did his bidding and those who didn't?

Why wouldn't we, dead, be a part of time? Our body is in the ground. And sleep, well, we all know sleep is like instantly. Time in sleep is nothing, honestly. If the dead know nothing, how can they go to Heaven?

I'm not sure how we can be re-united with God.... see, this is where I guess I don't understand what you believe. Other than the fact that we go to Heaven when we die. Wouldn't that contradict the fact that the dead in Christ will rise first at His 2nd coming?

[John Chrysostom]

My point is that when we die we're out of time so we're not going to heaven then coming back for our body it happens in the same instance; I think we agree we're just not using the same terms.

[SoccerLOTR]

Ok, I'm not going to explain my beliefs on this, as I'm still working some of it out--but I think a few places where Danielle is coming from are:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17--"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. "
This seems to imply that when Jesus comes down from heaven, the people already dead will rise to meet Him, THEN, the current believers will join them. These events seem to be happening relatively around the same time in this passage.
John 5:28-29--“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned."
This verse points to a specific time when ALL of the dead will rise and THEN be judged. There's another verse that I'm thinking of that deals with this stuff, but i can't find it at the moment.

Again, this is not to say I necessarily have this viewpoint, but I believe these are some of the references her church goes by.

[Steve]

You die. If you have Christ inside you, you go to Heaven, you don't you go to hell. I don't know when it happens, the Bible doesn't explicitly say that, end of story.

[Danielle Abigail Maxwell]

You die. If you have Christ inside you, you go to Heaven, you don't you go to hell. I don't know when it happens, the Bible doesn't explicitly say that, end of story.

lol. And we just spent over a page and a half trying to decify if this was true or not. You really crack me up. Do you just troll in places, with no meaning?

Soccer would be right.

"26. Death and Resurrection:
The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious state for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to meet their Lord. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unrighteous, will take place a thousand years later. (Rom. 6:23; 1 Tim. 6:15, 16; Eccl. 9:5, 6; Ps. 146:3, 4; John 11:11-14; Col. 3:4; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; John 5:28, 29; Rev. 20:1-10.)" - I posted this before, and this is what my church does believe. Along with verses.

[John Chrysostom]

I can see where you might read into those texts your beliefs but what would you say to the Hebrews 12 verse that talks about the cloud of witnesses we are surrounded by? Also in Romans 12:4-5 St. Paul says that we are of one body in Christ so how can the saints who depart this life cease being a part of that body?

[Steve]

You die. If you have Christ inside you, you go to Heaven, you don't you go to hell. I don't know when it happens, the Bible doesn't explicitly say that, end of story.

lol. And we just spent over a page and a half trying to decify if this was true or not. You really crack me up. Do you just troll in places, with no meaning?

Soccer would be right.

"26. Death and Resurrection:
The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious state for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to meet their Lord. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unrighteous, will take place a thousand years later. (Rom. 6:23; 1 Tim. 6:15, 16; Eccl. 9:5, 6; Ps. 146:3, 4; John 11:11-14; Col. 3:4; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; John 5:28, 29; Rev. 20:1-10.)" - I posted this before, and this is what my church does believe. Along with verses.

Yes. I just make overly complex, booorring, and pointless discussions make sense to people who know the bickering is pointless.

[John Chrysostom]

You didn't clarify anything you just summed up the arguments of one side of the issue. I don't think we're bickering, we're having a civil discussion about what I think is an important issue. If you think it's boring then don't read it or say anything.

[Danielle Abigail Maxwell]

I can see where you might read into those texts your beliefs but what would you say to the Hebrews 12 verse that talks about the cloud of witnesses we are surrounded by? Also in Romans 12:4-5 St. Paul says that we are of one body in Christ so how can the saints who depart this life cease being a part of that body?

How is it if we are asleep that we aren't a part of the body of Christ anymore? o.0 Or even dead. If we died, how can we be a part of it? Sleep doesn't mean we aren't part of the body anymore. And yes, we all are one body of Christ. But does that actually go in depth for when we die? Not that I can see. Who is to say we aren't still a part of that body when we die? And does that even mean we all will be like that in Heaven? As someone once stated, Heaven and earth, earth mainly, will be remade new. As I believe, after the 1000 years time, after Christ's 2nd coming.

Uh, angels. And I remember memorizing/looking in-depth to that Hebrews verse, and if I'm right, my teacher said something to the like of Angels. It doesn't exactly specify if they had to be on or from this earth.

Just saying, just a little bit of trolling, Steve. Ayn Rand said it correctly. I also don't think we are bickering. Otherwise I'm sure this will head to CCDS and I shall never see it again since I'm not even allowed back in there. o.0

[Mimi]

DAM, I'm just wondering, what do you make of this scripture:

"Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." II Corinthians 5:6-8

It seems to me, that this verse implies that if a believer is not alive, in the body, on earth then they're with God in heaven.

[John Chrysostom]

Well I think that if the people who are asleep are no longer aware of earth or the rest of the Church then how are they part of the body of Christ? To be a part of the body they would have to be actively participating in the Church with other believers.

Well I would disagree with the interpretation that it's angels since Hebrews 11 is talking about the Saints of the Old Testament and about their faith that foreshadowed our own faith and then St. Paul in chapter 12 says "Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us" I tend to think that the use of the word therefore links the chapter before to what he's talking about when he talks about the cloud of witnesses I mean he's not talking about angels before or after so I think it would be out of context to say it's talking about angels.

[Danielle Abigail Maxwell]

I don't quite see it as that. Reading the verse here in context: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV - I can see it as waiting for God to come back. But that also didn't have a time stamp on it.

I think that is the one thing we all might brush up against.

Like this verse: Luke 23:42-43 "42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[d]”

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you today you will be with me in paradise.” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV

Notice I took out the comma. No one actually knows where it was supposed to go *they didn't have punctuation back in the day*. But even with the today, does it mean that you go to Heaven when you die or when Christ's 2nd coming? Who knows.

EDIT: Ah. Out of context. Okay then.

Fooled me. I still don't see how when we die we go to Heaven. I understand why people believe it. Some hope. That those who have had to pass are looking down on us, smiling *right. because our suffering means that*

While we are sinful, we still know that there is pain and suffering and us "having our minds opened" doesn't mean we are going to understand and feel happy for those left down here. Because we are not Christ, not Jesus, so we don't know the salvation of anyone. Not even if we were to go to Heaven when we die.

How do you explain that "the dead know nothing" though?

[Mimi]

Will you answer my question please?

[John Chrysostom]

I agree there really isn't a time stamp on the verse which in my mind means that God exists outside of time and that those who die exist in the same way since those of us who believe are being reunited with Him.

Are you saying that the saints who departed before us aren't present with us in the Church as members of the body of Christ?

[Christian A.]

We are not Christ, not Jesus, so we don't know the salvation of anyone. Not even if we were to go to Heaven when we die.

So are you saying that no one can know if they're going to heaven when they die, or no one can know if they're saved? I know I'm saved, and I believe that the Bible, especially that passage with Jesus talking to the thief on the cross teaches that we go to heaven when we die.

Now, our bodies stay in the ground--only our souls/spirits go to heaven. But when Jesus comes back the second time, our bodies will be raised to be glorified and united with our glorified souls. Is that maybe where you are thinking that are bodies are asleep? They aren't in heaven, but our souls are, and we are conscious in heaven.

Example: Revelation 5: 9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

Why are those saints alive and well? I thought they were supposed to be unconscious.