Heaven and Hell

Umm...apparently this isn't as obvious as I thought.

At the Second Church of Odyssey you'll find different ways of expressing your beliefs, finding prayer support or being encouraged through regular devotionals.
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Christian A.
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Heaven and Hell

Post by Christian A. »

I'm a little concerned. I just saw Danielle Abigail Maxwell post in the May 21, 2011 thread that she doesn't believe that when people die they go to heaven or hell. I would be very comforted to know that this is not in any respect the majority view around here. I think the Bible is pretty clear about those places.

Please, if you believe in the traditional ideas of heaven and hell, post and let me know that I'm not in the minority.

And if you don't believe in them, pray tell me why. :-k
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John Chrysostom
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Post by John Chrysostom »

Well when you say traditional view of Heaven and Hell what do you mean? I mean I believe there are such places and from discussing this with people in the debate forum most people besides Danielle Abigail Maxwell believe that too. There is a lot of disagreement of what hell is though.
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Post by Danielle Abigail Maxwell »

I believe in Heaven or Hell. I don't believe that when you DIE you go straight there. I believe those that sin and don't accept Christ, when he comes for a 2nd time, will go to Hell. Not before. Along with Heaven. I see death as sleep.

Probably what sets me apart from the majority of you, since you are certainly not the minority, is because I'm Seventh Day Adventist. I also believe in the Sabbath as Saturday. But that isn't what is being discussed here, and honestly, people who worship on Sunday will make it to Heaven one day too.

I don't think you need to be concerned. I'm one person.
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Post by Josef1004 »

That's true, it depends on what you consider a "traditional view". The view of heaven that you get from cartoons and movies is a bunch of people sitting around on a cloud with harps and a pearly gate with St. Peter standing by. Is that really based on facts that God has revealed?
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John Chrysostom
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Post by John Chrysostom »

Why do you think that time passes the same in Heaven as it does here on earth?
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Post by Josef1004 »

I don't; I think heaven is a whole other dimension with a whole different space-time continuum.
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John Chrysostom
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Post by John Chrysostom »

I was asking Danielle Abigail Maxwell about that since it's a Seven Day Adventist view that the dead "sleep" and are unaware of the passing of time until the second coming. I disagree with this view since I think those who have died are still part of the Church and we are, as St. Paul said, surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses that are the believers who have died before us.
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Post by Christian A. »

Danielle Abigail Maxwell wrote:I'm Seventh Day Adventist.
Since you're Seventh Day Adventist, do you also believe that Jesus is the same as the archangel Michael, and vice versa? That's one other thing I've been taught that you guys believe.

-- May 16th, 2011, 11:45 am --
Ayn Rand wrote:I was asking Danielle Abigail Maxwell about that since it's a Seven Day Adventist view that the dead "sleep" and are unaware of the passing of time until the second coming. I disagree with this view since I think those who have died are still part of the Church and we are, as St. Paul said, surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses that are the believers who have died before us.
I agree with you. I don't believe that unbelievers will "sleep" rather than go directly to hell, but I definitely don't believe that believers will "sleep" rather than going directly to heaven. I'd like to know where she finds that anywhere in the Bible. :-k
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Post by Jesus' Princess »

I believe that when a believer dies, he/she will go straight to heaven, "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" (sorry, I can't remember the reference at the moment) If you die and you're not a believer, I'm not really sure, I think It's something that none of us will for sure know the answer too. I definitely believe that believers will go straight to heaven though.
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Post by Amethystic »

Christian A. wrote:
Danielle Abigail Maxwell wrote:I'm Seventh Day Adventist.
Since you're Seventh Day Adventist, do you also believe that Jesus is the same as the archangel Michael, and vice versa? That's one other thing I've been taught that you guys believe.
I think you're getting Seventh Day Adventism mixed up with Jehovah's Witnesses, which is not a Christian denomination.

People who know Christ will go to heaven, those who don't will go to hell. As for what happens between death and the soul's final destination... I have a few theories, but I couldn't quote a bunch of verses or anything to back it up.
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Post by ric »

The Bible is quite clear that Heaven and Hell exist, yes, but it's certainly not clear about where you go immediately after you die, so I'd rather not trouble myself with which extra-biblical theory to believe in.
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Post by Danielle Abigail Maxwell »

Ayn Rand wrote:I was asking Danielle Abigail Maxwell about that since it's a Seven Day Adventist view that the dead "sleep" and are unaware of the passing of time until the second coming. I disagree with this view since I think those who have died are still part of the Church and we are, as St. Paul said, surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses that are the believers who have died before us.
That I don't get. o.0

There is a verse, and somewhere in the old testament, that the dead know nothing. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV

Look up SDA beliefs, because I can't quote them all. http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html
That isn't to say I even believe them all. lol. Funny. I believe in the Bible.

"26. Death and Resurrection:
The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious state for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to meet their Lord. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unrighteous, will take place a thousand years later. (Rom. 6:23; 1 Tim. 6:15, 16; Eccl. 9:5, 6; Ps. 146:3, 4; John 11:11-14; Col. 3:4; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; John 5:28, 29; Rev. 20:1-10.)"

I'm also not forcing any of you to believe what I do. If it seems like that, I'm sorry. But I do believe that the dead know nothing, and that going to Heaven when you die seems like such a sad thing. Why? Because then you get to watch the cruel and painful life of everyone down here, and that I don't think I would want. Also, if you go to Hell when you die, or Heaven, why on earth would Christ need to come a 2nd time? Because he could stop reproduction, and wait until we all died. Then His job would be done. :)

And I may have taken world Religions and then studied other Christian denomations one quarter, I don't remember anything about the archangel Michael. So, no, don't believe that.

I even see unbelievers sleeping because God will judge everyone accordingly, and He will punish accordingly. He has to do that with Satan too one day.

EDIT: I also don't think you have to be concerned or freak out. lol. I learned definitely. This was how I was brought up and this is how I believe. And yes, most of the Christian world believes that when you die you go to Heaven. I live with it.
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Post by bookworm »

Danielle Abigail Maxwell wrote:God will judge everyone accordingly, and He will punish accordingly. He has to do that with Satan too one day.
He already did, that’s why he’s in Hell…
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Post by ric »

bookworm wrote:
Danielle Abigail Maxwell wrote:God will judge everyone accordingly, and He will punish accordingly. He has to do that with Satan too one day.
He already did, that’s why he’s in Hell…
Uh, no, Satan's not in Hell...
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Post by John Chrysostom »

To DAM: So what would you say about Luke 16:19-31 then?
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Post by Danielle Abigail Maxwell »

bookworm wrote:
Danielle Abigail Maxwell wrote:God will judge everyone accordingly, and He will punish accordingly. He has to do that with Satan too one day.
He already did, that’s why he’s in Hell…
No. o.0 Revelation hasn't happened yet.

Satan still rules this earth. The battle has been won, but clean up still has to happen. Satan hasn't been punished yet. And it will come. *this is the part where I realize what I believe doesn't align with any of your beliefs. And I'm fine with that. Just cause I'm Adventist.*

What I just want to know, is it enough to believe in God, trust in Him, accept Christ's sacrifice, believe in Heaven and Hell, and still be accepted from you people? Or do I have to be perfect in your eyes? *this was sincerely asked in a curious nature. :)*

EDIT: I'll get there in a second, Ayn Rand. :) I have to go read it.

EDIT 2: Wasn't that a parable, Ayn Rand?
Last edited by Danielle Abigail Maxwell on Mon May 16, 2011 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Christian A. »

Danielle Abigail Maxwell wrote:I'm also not forcing any of you to believe what I do. If it seems like that, I'm sorry.
No it doesn't seem like that. I'm just trying to dig around in your theology and see where you get that from Scripture.
Danielle Abigail Maxwell wrote:But I do believe that the dead know nothing, and that going to Heaven when you die seems like such a sad thing. Why? Because then you get to watch the cruel and painful life of everyone down here, and that I don't think I would want. Also, if you go to Hell when you die, or Heaven, why on earth would Christ need to come a 2nd time? Because he could stop reproduction, and wait until we all died. Then His job would be done. :)
What do you do with this verse: "It is appointed unto men once to die, and then the judgment."?

When we are in heaven, our minds will be perfected, and we will understand why everyone on earth will be enduring cruel and painful lives, so it won't be sad. That is, if we even will be able to see stuff going on down here. Maybe we will. There's nothing in the Bible to say we won't, but I think we might be too busy worshiping our Savior. :D

God decided in eternity past that when the end of time was near, He would send Christ down to earth a second time to conquer His enemies and to (1. if you're a millenialist, set up a millenial kingdom or (2. destroy the world and create a new heaven and new earth. Yes, He could just stop our ability to reproduce, but the Bible shows that that's not the way God has it planned. King Jesus will make a return to this earth to demonstrate His power, justice, and wrath when He crushes His enemies.
Amythistic wrote: I think you're getting Seventh Day Adventism mixed up with Jehovah's Witnesses, which is not a Christian denomination.
I know Jehovah's Witnesses say that, but I was thinking that the Seventh Day Adventists had that in their teachings somewhere as well.
bookworm wrote:
Danielle Abigail Maxwell wrote:God will judge everyone accordingly, and He will punish accordingly. He has to do that with Satan too one day.
He already did, that’s why he’s in Hell…
ric wrote: Uh, no, Satan's not in Hell...
Well, that's debatable. Some believe Satan is enduring his thousand years of being chained right now, but others believe he's still free to roam the earth and tempt people. Personally, I lean toward the latter.
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Post by John Chrysostom »

Even if it is a parable does that make it any less true?
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Post by Danielle Abigail Maxwell »

Yeah, Satan is still roaming around. The 1000 years hasn't happened yet. *thank you Bible class junior year of HS*

Eh... I can't see that. If God is going to smit his enemies, which I believe is true, why when you die would you go to Heaven? I don't get it. I can't see it. That doesn't convince me.

I also gave you links to my denominations beliefs. And no, we don't believe that. Jehovah's Witnesses - much different from SDA's. pretty sure.

Ah, and that is where we come up to speculation. As someone just told me on another site, we really have no clue what happens when you die because people normally don't come back. *that 90 minutes in heaven book? HAHAH. I laugh at it* But it is what I believe. And you believe that when you die you go to Heaven. We both just get to sit at a stalemate, I can already see that.

And that verse... where is that from? "And then judgment" can perfectly well mean CHrist's 2nd coming. That is judgment, along with the 1000 years *which, now my brain is fuzzy on that, but I don't want to get into it*

EDIT: Uh... there is a lot of speculation with that. Because aren't parables supposed to have an underlying meaning? Because the point of Peter's Dream with the blanket and the cloved feet animals was not that you should eat unclean meat. It is that everyone should be treated same. *and I'm totally paraphrasing.*
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John Chrysostom
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Post by John Chrysostom »

Well I don't believe that we should follow the Old Testament dietary laws so that's not the best example but I also think that this Parable is true in its description of heaven and hell.
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