PHC - Clarification

[odysseyfan1]

I'm afraid that when I started the "PHC: Questions Answered" topic I left out the most important part of our doctrine. A person could wear skirts and abstain from jewelry, not listen to rock music, or watch any movies, they could go to five services a week, and follow every one of our beliefs, and still go to Hell. Not that standards aren't important, nay they are very important. But they're not the most important thing.

What we are about, and what every church should be about, is Holiness to God. A christian should be able to give God every part of his life, without holding anything back. When someone gets saved, they will now go to Heaven when they die. They love Jesus, and want to please him. But, besides just getting saved, every person should go beyond that and get "entirely sanctified." When this happens, they give their entire life to God. He takes out the "carnal nature" (which is the part of us that wants to sin, and wants to be worldly, and wants to hold back things from God) Not that you can't make mistakes now, but being sanctified helps tremendously when trying to fight temptation.

But that is what we are about: heart holiness. Not standards (though this has sort of characterized us in today's world) Some people think that standards can save them, but this is not so.

Hebrews 12:14 "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:"

[John Chrysostom]

Could someone wear jeans and jewelry, listen to rock music, watch a variety of movies, go to service once a week and still go to Heaven?

[Termite]

Look, I'm all for it, OF1... I just think what a lot of people are wondering is how you define what living 'entirely sanctified' is, such as 'what is worldly', etc. etc., by what scriptures?

Just a thought. When speaking of beliefs in a situation like the 'Questions' thread, scripture back-up is always good.

I'm glad that you live what you speak, cause not enough people do. I just personally don't agree with it (as if you couldn't tell ) and would like more specific biblical references, is all. *shrugs*

[odysseyfan1]

Well, Termite, I'm not sure what scriptures you're talking about, because I have backed up our beliefs with scripture. Long hair, TV, ect. Living entirely sanctified is what I said, consecrating your entire life to God, doing whatever he tells you to do. Living worldly is just what is sounds like: living like the world. I'd be happy to provide you with the references again, just tell me which ones.

Could someone wear jeans and jewelry, listen to rock music, watch a variety of movies, go to service once a week and still go to Heaven?

Absolutely. Now if God told them to stop doing those things, and they said no, then no, they couldn't go to Heaven.

[John Chrysostom]

I think Termite is talking about this

But, besides just getting saved, every person should go beyond that and get "entirely sanctified."

Almost all Protestants would say this is work salvation, i.e. there are things you have to do besides being saved to go to heaven, i.e. believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved is not enough.

Does God call all Christians to not wear jeans or jewelry, stop listening to rock music, stop watching "worldly" movies, and to go to multiple church services a week?

Living worldly is just what is sounds like: living like the world.

How far do you take that though? The world uses the internet why do you use the internet? What Termite is asking is where in Scripture do you find what is worldly and what is acceptable? i.e. why is rock music bad but the internet is fine?

[odysseyfan1]

Almost all Protestants would say this is work salvation, i.e. there are things you have to do besides being saved to go to heaven, i.e. believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved is not enough.

Does God call all Christians to not wear jeans or jewelry, stop listening to rock music, stop watching "worldly" movies, and to go to multiple church services a week?

I don't believe it's absolutely necessary to be entirely sanctified, but it is very helpful. God convicts some people about a certain thing, and others about something different. And no, it's not works.

How far do you take that though? The world uses the internet why do you use the internet? What Termite is asking is where in Scripture do you find what is worldly and what is acceptable? i.e. why is rock music bad but the internet is fine?

The internet can be a very useful tool. Rock music, is WAY different. Bad artists, bad songs, worldly music, bad history, the way it affects you, thw way the church has always stood against it...

[John Chrysostom]

Does your denomination allow for the fact that God convicts people differently or do they make general rules that they expect everyone in your denomination to follow?

The internet can also be an extremely filthy and worldly place, bad sites, bad images, worldly music/movies/sites/people, how is it any different than rock? Just that it can be useful?

The church has always stood against it? Really? My church hasn't always stood against it and I'm pretty sure you'd be hard pressed to find people on here whose churches have "always" stood against rock music. My priest listens to U2, the Cure, and Muse.

Also are you saying that tradition is on par with Scripture? I can agree with you, as long as we define tradition more, I just don't think anyone else on here, besides Sherlock, would agree with you.

[Termite]

Could someone wear jeans and jewelry, listen to rock music, watch a variety of movies, go to service once a week and still go to Heaven?

Absolutely. Now if God told them to stop doing those things, and they said no, then no, they couldn't go to Heaven.

Oh, so you know this? I think I've said it to you before, but maybe it was someone else. Either way, I'm going to say it again: don't ever think you can absolutely say who God will accept into Heaven and who He won't. Cause you don't know the whole mind of God. Don't ever think you will.

You mentioned TV... where in the Bible do you get references that say TV is bad? =P Is the TBN channel bad? It must be, cause it's on TV. Even though they preach on it. Same for the music.

[odysseyfan1]

OK, first calm down. We won't get anywhere good getting all hyper and mad.

The church has always stood against it? Really? My church hasn't always stood against it and I'm pretty sure you'd be hard pressed to find people on here whose churches have "always" stood against rock music. My priest listens to U2, the Cure, and Muse.

I'm not talking about specific churches, but the Church in general. Back, oh, probably early 1900's-on to whenever the church split. It's always been considered "wicked" and for good reason.

The internet can also be an extremely filthy and worldly place, bad sites, bad images, worldly music/movies/sites/people, how is it any different than rock? Just that it can be useful?

I think we've worn the rock subject out. I can't say anything else about it that I haven't already. You can get strong filters for the internet.

Does your denomination allow for the fact that God convicts people differently or do they make general rules that they expect everyone in your denomination to follow?

Are you asking that sarcastically or as a real "I-really-am-curious" question. Yes, the pastors, teachers, ect. have to follow these rules, if they want to hold a position of leadership. Would you let a homosexual pastor your church? Same kind of thing.

Also are you saying that tradition is on par with Scripture? I can agree with you, as long as we define tradition more, I just don't think anyone else on here, besides Sherlock, would agree with you.

Oh, Sherlock agrees with me on what? The rock music issue? No, of course we can't go on tradition. But the people who originally made our rules made them for good reason. They saw where some of these things would lead, and unfortunately, they were right.

Oh, so you know this? I think I've said it to you before, but maybe it was someone else. Either way, I'm going to say it again: don't ever think you can absolutely say who God will accept into Heaven and who He won't. Cause you don't know the whole mind of God. Don't ever think you will.

I did not say that. I said if they say "No God, I want to wear pants, and you can't tell me not to, I'll do what I want." Then they would be sinning.

You mentioned TV... where in the Bible do you get references that say TV is bad? =P Is the TBN channel bad? It must be, cause it's on TV. Even though they preach on it. Same for the music.

There's no verse that says "Thou shalt not view a television set." But the television is very wicked, with wicked people, who have wicked ideas. Teaching kids that evolution is a proven scientific fact, for example. They swear, are violent, immoral, curse God. That's why we don't have TV, and I don't feel like I've missed anything. I don't know what the TBN channel is.

Anyway, if you guys want to debate the standards that we have, why don't we move it to PHC: Questions Answered.

[John Chrysostom]

You think the church only split after the 1900s? Which church are you thinking of? Rock music has been considered wicked by some since it's beginning no doubt but I'm saying I don't think the church in general considers it so, I mean have you noticed almost no one else on this board agrees with you? And we have a pretty diverse group of denominations.

You can get really strong filters for music its called choosing what music you buy and listen to.

I am really curious as to your answer. So those rules are laid out without consideration as to how God will lead the individual, but assuming that He will call them to not listen to rock music and the other standards that you say are needed to be "entirely sanctified"? Also are you equating listening to rock music with being a homosexual?

Sherlock agrees with me that Tradition is important and can be as authoritative as Scripture. She does not agree with the rock music issue. If you're following the rules simply because the people who made them had good reasons and not because the rules are Scriptural you are going with tradition. How is it different?

[American Eagle]

I mean have you noticed almost no one else on this board agrees with you? And we have a pretty diverse group of denominations.

American Eagle, Dr. Watson, KODY 105, Laura Ingalls, Regis Blackbeard, iluvsns, Peachey Keen, odysseyfan1, Whitty Whit.

I don't think any of those users regularly listen to/support rock music. Forgive me if I misrepresented any of you.

[John Chrysostom]

There's a huge difference between doesn't regularly listen to and thinks it's wicked and will keep you out of heaven. Also someone who doesn't regularly listen to rock music or even someone who doesn't care for rock music does not equal someone who does not support rock music.

Do all of those people, do you yourself, think that rock music is wicked? Or that God asks all pastors and teachers in the church to give up rock music?

[bookworm]

I mean have you noticed almost no one else on this board agrees with you? And we have a pretty diverse group of denominations.

American Eagle, Dr. Watson, KODY 105, Laura Ingalls, Regis Blackbeard, iluvsns, Peachey Keen, odysseyfan1, Whitty Whit.

I don't think any of those users regularly listen to/support rock music. Forgive me if I misrepresented any of you.

bookworm, Jesus_Minime, Jelly, The Top Crusader, SoccerLOTR, Steve, King Butter Turtle, Cbriggs45, Termite, gunblader3, Amethystic, ric, 31899, montywhittakerIII, DanP740, Yanny, Taps, Kmap

I believe those users are in favor or neutral. Forgive me if I misrepresented any of you.

18/27=66%
I believe that qualifies as a majority.

[American Eagle]

There's a huge difference between doesn't regularly listen to and thinks it's wicked and will keep you out of heaven. Also someone who doesn't regularly listen to rock music or even someone who doesn't care for rock music does not equal someone who does not support rock music.

Do all of those people, do you yourself, think that rock music is wicked? Or that God asks all pastors and teachers in the church to give up rock music?

None of us think rock music will keep you out of heaven. I personally think it's not something Christians should be involved in, but I cannot speak for the other "non-listeners". I've already over-represented them by using their name without asking.

Edit: bookworm, I agree; the majority of The ToO listens to it.

[King Butter Turtle]

The ToO now has only 27 members? Where'd everybody go?

[bookworm]

The ToO now has only 27 members? Where'd everybody go?

27 who have recently voiced their opinion on rock music.

[King Butter Turtle]

The ToO now has only 27 members? Where'd everybody go?

27 who have recently voiced their opinion on rock music.

I know but, I think it's a rather unfair conclusion as those who are against rock music are (probably) more likely to voice their opinion than those who are ok with it.

Of course, that would only give the ok-with-rock-ers a larger majority than they already have so, it doesn't really affect your point.

[Termite]

DON'T TELL ME TO CALM DOWN! I'M PERFECTLY CALM!


Yes, that was a joke. No one's hyper and mad, buddy.

Oh, so you know this? I think I've said it to you before, but maybe it was someone else. Either way, I'm going to say it again: don't ever think you can absolutely say who God will accept into Heaven and who He won't. Cause you don't know the whole mind of God. Don't ever think you will.

I did not say that. I said if they say "No God, I want to wear pants, and you can't tell me not to, I'll do what I want." Then they would be sinning.

Sinning is a lot different then not going to Heaven. Read your post I first quoted again. =P

TBN: Trinity Broadcasting Network. All it shows is preaching. =P And you can put as many filters on TV as you can on the internet, so I still don't see where you're coming from, but if that's the way you want to live, then be my guest.

[King Butter Turtle]

Eh... I probably wouldn't wouldn't let my kids watch TBN, either.

[The Top Crusader]

TBN is an abomination. Seriously its awful.

...I know the rock issue has been spoken of to death but I'd really like actual scripture or proof of some kind on that issue. >_>

Instead of "Rock music, is WAY different. Bad artists, bad songs, worldly music, bad history, the way it affects you, thw way the church has always stood against it..." as a statement with nothing at all to support it.