Paul McCusker a Catholic?

[rickyderocher]

Being a Christian has to do with A) Believing that Jesus died for us and arose from the dead. B) Living it. (Faith without actions is dead). [To put to uber basic points]
Everyone makes mistakes and is misguided at some point or another, and not all Catholics pray to Mary. There are many who are greatly opposed to such things.

31899

Agreed. There are many Catholics who do not pray to Mary or the saints. And even many that do--clarify that they are not praying to Mary as if she is equal to God--but they have the view that she is closer to God/Jesus and can therefore help intercede for us, so they think Mary will pray for them. This contradicts the Bible in that it says that Jesus is the one who can intercede for us and we can go straight to Him now without anyone else. However, despite the inaccuracy of that belief, it isn't blasphemous, nor does it make Mary into some sort of god.

Umm... Praying to anyone but God is blasphemous.

[odysseyfan1]

That's disappointing.

[bookworm]

And even many that do--clarify that they are not praying to Mary as if she is equal to God--but they have the view that she is closer to God/Jesus and can therefore help intercede for us, so they think Mary will pray for them. This contradicts the Bible in that it says that Jesus is the one who can intercede for us and we can go straight to Him now without anyone else.

Correct on the first, wrong on the second. It isn’t wrong to ask someone to intercede, it’s just asking more people to pray for your requests. If that’s wrong we should close the Prayer Closet board since that’s what we do in there.

[rickyderocher]

And even many that do--clarify that they are not praying to Mary as if she is equal to God--but they have the view that she is closer to God/Jesus and can therefore help intercede for us, so they think Mary will pray for them. This contradicts the Bible in that it says that Jesus is the one who can intercede for us and we can go straight to Him now without anyone else.

Correct on the first, wrong on the second. It isn’t wrong to ask someone to intercede, it’s just asking more people to pray for your requests. If that’s wrong we should close the Prayer Closet board since that’s what we do in there.

Mary and the rest of the "saints" are dead! Someone who is dead can't help you intercede.

Necromancy - trying to communicating with dead people - is forbidden in Scripture. Praying to dead people is part of paganism.

Deuteronomy 18:10-12 - "There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, (11) Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. (12) For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee."

[The Top Crusader]

Yeah, that is one of my own main disagreements with Catholicism... their extremely high view of Mary and their prayer to the dead to intercede.

There are other things as well but those are the big things.

[SoccerLOTR]

And even many that do--clarify that they are not praying to Mary as if she is equal to God--but they have the view that she is closer to God/Jesus and can therefore help intercede for us, so they think Mary will pray for them. This contradicts the Bible in that it says that Jesus is the one who can intercede for us and we can go straight to Him now without anyone else.

Correct on the first, wrong on the second. It isn’t wrong to ask someone to intercede, it’s just asking more people to pray for your requests. If that’s wrong we should close the Prayer Closet board since that’s what we do in there.

Actually, that wasn't quite what I meant...I mean that they believe Mary is closer to God and better able to intercede than normal humans...when the Bible states that Jesus holds the place next to God, and there aren't a bunch of people in some sort of hierarchy in heaven that intercede for us--and yeah, the Bible doesn't say anything about the dead interceding for us. So as I stated before--disagree with their beliefs, but don't think some of them make them unchristian.

[bookworm]

@ rickyderocher:
Necromancy is certainly forbidden. But that isn’t what intercession is. We actually had this discussion in one of my computer classes believe it or not. The instructor was discussing how in programming languages, just as in English, semantics is important. It is vital to understand the meaning of terms you use, because the actual meaning may be different than the inferred meaning. You have to look at the intent. He gave the following example, which was from a real conversation he had.
Necromancy, as forbidden by God, is not to be understood as simply ‘contacting someone dead’ because, by that definition, Jesus Himself was a necromancer. He spoke to the deceased Lazarus, among others. What is forbidden is using spirits to try to gain some kind of supernatural knowledge or power, like fortune telling, séances, or witchcraft.
The word, like many others, had a clearer meaning in previous times than it does today, because as time goes on people form certain connotations that eventually become the new definition even if that’s not what it’s supposed to mean. This can be seen by looking at the etymology of the word, which is from the Greek for ‘corpse divination’.

@ SoccerLOTR:
Ah, thank you for clarifying. True, in Heaven there is no ‘hierarchy’ in that sense. But I don’t think that’s what the intercession case is really based on. It’s more of a ‘common sense’ approach. Who is closer to someone than their mom? So if you want help, certainly go to Jesus, but it can’t help to get some extra people ‘on your side’, again just like we do with family and friends when we ask them to pray for our intentions.

[SoccerLOTR]

@ SoccerLOTR:
Ah, thank you for clarifying. True, in Heaven there is no ‘hierarchy’ in that sense. But I don’t think that’s what the intercession case is really based on. It’s more of a ‘common sense’ approach. Who is closer to someone than their mom? So if you want help, certainly go to Jesus, but it can’t help to get some extra people ‘on your side’, again just like we do with family and friends when we ask them to pray for our intentions.

I'm not saying I don't understand WHY they do it--I just disagree.

[John Chrysostom]

While I am not Catholic I believe I can clarify the practice of asking for intercessions from Mary and the Saints. I am Eastern Orthodox so I do ask for intercessions from Mary and the Saints. This is no different than asking friends and family to pray for us. We believe that Mary and the Saints are still part of the Body of Christ, i.e. the Church so we are simply asking fellow members of the Church to pray for us.

Now on the subject of Mary there is a lot of confusion, yes the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Church hold Mary in high esteem, because the Bible tells us to. Luke 1:46-47 "And Mary said: My Soul magnifies the Lord. And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior. For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed."

[SoccerLOTR]

Thank you for clarifying, Ayn Rand--good to have another perspective. I'm not saying Mary should not be held in esteem--but it says that she was blessed--not that she was superior to others. It was God who blessed her, not her inherent goodness--I think some Catholics go to the extent to say that she never sinned, which would be wrong, as no one but Jesus has been perfect. She was righteous and deserves respect, as do many Christians over the years who have served God wholeheartedly and sacrificed much for Him. I respect them and admire them--but don't elevate them as being higher up on the totem pole, so to speak. There are many Christians that I look up to for advice and guidance--but I don't think they are more important in God's eyes than anyone else.

[John Chrysostom]

It is indeed a belief amongst some Catholics that Mary never sinned, I disagree with that view. I wouldn't say Mary and the Saints are more important than us in God's eyes but I would say that they are agreed upon examples that the Church holds up to the faithful as people to admire and emulate.

[Jeremy]

Actually, that wasn't quite what I meant...I mean that they believe Mary is closer to God and better able to intercede than normal humans...when the Bible states that Jesus holds the place next to God,

Wait a minute. Are you saying that Jesus is lesser than God?

Jeremy

[SoccerLOTR]

Actually, that wasn't quite what I meant...I mean that they believe Mary is closer to God and better able to intercede than normal humans...when the Bible states that Jesus holds the place next to God,

Wait a minute. Are you saying that Jesus is lesser than God?

Jeremy

Wow, by NO means is that what I'm saying--goodness, I'm not good at expressing myself here. These verses express what I was saying:

Romans 8:33-34: "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us."

By saying "the place next to God" I am only saying that Jesus is the one at the right hand of God, and it is not Mary's place. The Bible speaks of Jesus as the one who speaks on behalf of us--not Mary.

It is indeed a belief amongst some Catholics that Mary never sinned, I disagree with that view. I wouldn't say Mary and the Saints are more important than us in God's eyes but I would say that they are agreed upon examples that the Church holds up to the faithful as people to admire and emulate.

I can agree with that.