Innocent at birth

[Knight Fisher]

Quickly aside, on the baby thing: yes, we are all born with it in us, but you can't condemn a baby until they're old enough to learn between right and wrong... So yes, babies are 'innocent' when born. It's when they're older that the accountability question comes in... but that's a discussion for another time, I think.

I completely disagree. So where in the Bible does it have an age of accountability. Biblical only, please refrain from saying for example: Sure babies are born sinful. But they are so cute and adorable. How could God send them to hell.

So if your going to debate this, please Bible only. Nothing else. My reasoning turn to Genisis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. So somebody what does in his image mean?

[bookworm]

So where in the Bible does it have an age of accountability.

It doesn’t use those words of course, but the idea could be implied.

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Says babies have done neither right nor wrong.

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Talking about the Promised Land, says that the children didn’t know the Israelites were doing wrong, so they would not be punished for it by being denied entrance.

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Seems to clearly say there is a time when knowledge of good and evil is reached.

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Implies that those under twenty didn’t do wrong, or know they were, and so would not be punished.

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Indicates that children must not know, at least at first, because they need trained.

[Knight Fisher]

With the Numbers 14 one it's saying the people under 20 weren't with their fathers when they rebelled against Moses and the like. With the Proverbs 22. It doesn't mean they don't know good or evil. Its like Potty training. You don't know it at first but once you do you wont stop. With the Isaiah I don't see where you see it. I see that you can choose between good and evil. Deuteronomy I'll acknowledge that one. Romans they weren't yet born and thus hadn't done anything. But there is original sin. Yes it could be implied. But here's my argument. Genesis 1:27 says that man was made in God's image. Thus perfect no sin. Right? Then Genesis 5:3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. Thus If Adam was created in God's image perfect. And he became sinful. And Seth was born in Adam's image. He is sinful. You are free to disagree with me obviously. But can you deny that?

[Termite]

Oh my. The babies born who die twenty minutes later go to Hell.

Look, I never said babies weren't sinful. All I said was that they are 'innocent' (notice the quotes) for a time. You can't expect a two month old to understand the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

[Parker Family]

Oh my. The babies born who die twenty minutes later go to Hell.

That would be sad if it was true

[The Top Crusader]

So all the aborted and stillborn babies are ALSO in hell. Great.

[Amethystic]

I know that you said nothing except the Bible, but I feel the need to point out that there have been several incidences where during near-death experiences and visionary dreams parents have seen their young, deceased children (who died either in the womb or when they were quite little) in heaven, alive and happy and perfectly content. I don't want to start an argument about dreams and visions and such, but I'd like to think that when people dream of their children in paradise that it's God-inspired and not some sort of trickery from the devil. After all, why would he want to offer any comfort to the broken-hearted?

And even if I was convinced that it was otherwise, I wouldn't go and try to prove all those grieving families wrong. Would God want us embittering people by telling them that we believe their poor, innocent baby is rotting in hell? Unless I was going to pray and raise the poor kid back from the dead myself, I think I'd just keep my yap shut. (Actually, I'd keep my yap shut anyways.)

[Knight Fisher]

Oh my. The babies born who die twenty minutes later go to Hell.

Look, I never said babies weren't sinful. All I said was that they are 'innocent' (notice the quotes) for a time. You can't expect a two month old to understand the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

So God can create the universe out of nothing in six days? And can't give faith to a 2 month old child? God can do anything right? Children can here through the womb. I don't know what happens to all those babies who are aborted. No one but God knows. But babies are born sinful. My youngest sibling was miscarried. So I'm not just being cold hearted.

[Termite]

oh my gosh.

Dude, get your head checked. >_< God does not send babies who don't hear the gospel to Hell. If that's the god you serve, then I pity you. Your youngest sibling is in Heaven. Aborted babies are in Heaven. EVERY little child who has no knowledge and no way to find out goes to Heaven. God is not an unjust, judgmental God. He is a loving Father who understands our human limitations as a fully-dependent-on-others tiny being with no way to comprehend the gospel.

[Knight Fisher]

First off I do not need to get my head checked. And it is very rude to imply that I do. Second off when did I say that all babies go to hell.

I don't know what happens to all those babies who are aborted. No one but God knows.

So if you can't keep a civil tongue please do not respond. And finally please read the first post. Which no one except Bookworm complied with. (Thank you Bookworm.) If you want to bash me and call me names. Start a faction to do it.

[Marvin D.]

Okay, what about 2 Samuel 12:23? David knew he would go to his son. Where would his son be? In Heaven. And really. How could a baby understand the Gospel, yet not be able to talk? And just logically thinking...God is full of grace. I wouldn't serve a God who condemns millions of babies who don't even know who their parents really are to burn in Hell forever and ever. Only those who reject God's love and never invite Him to live with them go there. And they can't accept anything. So it's not their fault.

[Steve]

Okay, what about 2 Samuel 12:23? David knew he would go to his son. Where would his son be? In Heaven. And really. How could a baby understand the Gospel, yet not be able to talk? And just logically thinking...God is full of grace. I wouldn't serve a God who condemns millions of babies who don't even know who their parents really are to burn in Hell forever and ever. Only those who reject God's love and never invite Him to live with them go there. And they can't accept anything. So it's not their fault.

Corecctamundo. God is not so coldhearted that He sends unborn babies to hell just because...oh-they had no chance to be saved! God is not cruesl, therefore I beleive dead babies go to Heaven.

[Christian A.]

I agree that unborn babies or children too young to understand the gospel go to heaven if they die. But that doesn't mean they deserved it. "In Adam all die." All humans ever conceived deserve Hell because Adam sinned as our representative. But it is very merciful of God to save them from Hell if they can't understand the Gospel. I wish the Bible was more clear on this subject so we could be sure, but I think that text from 2 Samuel that Marvin mentioned is the best one we have. That's what I always use.

[bookworm]

First off I do not need to get my head checked. And it is very rude to imply that I do.

I believe Termite was referring to the reasoning in your statement

Children can here through the womb. If they here the gospel they can be saved. So if your talking to the child. Or discussing God's word.

which has a major flaw.
You are equating ‘hearing’ with ‘understanding’. You seem to be saying that since babies in the womb can physically hear, all we need to do is speak some Bible passages through the mom’s stomach and they’ll accept Jesus. But it obviously doesn’t work that way. Yes they can physically hear the words, but that has nothing to do with accepting what they mean. You can’t accept something you don’t understand. It is simply impossible for a baby to comprehend what you’re saying.

[Amethystic]

And now, (pardon me again for departing from the biblical grounds) I would like to offer up a bit of science. Psychologically, children go through different phases as they mature; a four-year-old is mentally unable to understand morality the same way a fourteen-year-old can. That is another big reason why I believe there is an age of accountability--there are some things that we are literally incapable of fully understanding until we reach a certain level of physical and psychological development.

[Knight Fisher]

OK I have taken out the statement about hearing the gospel and being saved. I acknowledge that it is not biblically present. (Thus I took it out. Gasp! I admitted I was wrong. ) But answer me this. Why can't God make them understand the Bible. He created the world and he can't do that? He made Jesus's perfection count for all of us and he can't do that? So God can do anything except that? And Bookworm I fail to see how that comment can be taken any other way.

[bookworm]

And Bookworm I fail to see how that comment can be taken any other way.

Which comment?
If you refer to my comment that babies cannot comprehend salvation, then you are being very closed minded if you can’t see any other ways to take that then as saying God isn’t all powerful because I never once said that. I didn’t even mention God one way or the other.
Of course God can make them understand. That doesn’t mean he does.

[Knight Fisher]

No everyone is entitled to their own view. And I respect that. I was referring to the one by Termite.

[Amethystic]

I believe Termite merely experienced a moment of tactless hyperbole. She likely didn't mean anything by it.

OK I have taken out the statement about hearing the gospel and being saved. I acknowledge that it is not biblically present. (Thus I took it out. Gasp! I admitted I was wrong. ) But answer me this. Why can't God make them understand the Bible. He created the world and he can't do that? He made Jesus's perfection count for all of us and he can't do that? So God can do anything except that? And Bookworm I fail to see how that comment can be taken any other way.

Yes, God can do anything, and he did create the universe--and he created human beings so that we develop mentally and spiritually over time. Besides, God doesn't 'make' anyone understand the Bible--most adults don't even understand it! He's given us a free choice, and when that right to choose is taken away (such as when a child is killed before they are old enough to understand right and wrong) he'll take into account that person's physical inability to understand the choice. A man in Africa who's never heard of Jesus can be held accountable because he has the capacity to tell right from wrong; a newborn baby doesn't yet have the ability to do that.

[Knight Fisher]

*Gives up, shuts up, goes to bed.*