How much "extra" can a person believe and be a Christian?

[The Top Crusader]

Something I think about from time to time because I know a lot of people who certainly consider themselves Christians, and as a technicality they indeed are (they do 100% believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and came to earth to die for our sins and rose again on the third day and they have accepted them as their Lord and King, etc etc), but....... they are Mormons or something.

Now inevitably Catholicism will be brought in as well and that is to be expected... but I'm more looking at Mormonism myself.

Now I totally think that Joseph Smith was a false prophet and therefore the Book of Mormon does not have divine inspiration... but if a person completely believes in the important things about Christ that makes us all Christians, but ALSO believes additional texts written by some other dude, does their additional beliefs null their initial belief in Christ? Are they technically Christians who will go to heaven and find out they were off a bit, or will they miss out on heaven and end up in hell due to their additional doctrines?

[Knight Fisher]

Well Mormonism is a cult so it shouldn't be considered Christian. But I don't know much about it so I cant say for sure if they are Christian.

[The Top Crusader]

Sure but no Mormon is going to say "YEAH its a cult!", they all claim to basically just be a different denomination of Christianity.

[Knight Fisher]

Well they definitely aren't just another denomination.

[The Top Crusader]

Yeah, okay, we are aware, the point is they DO believe that Christ died for their sins, etc etc. They believe the entire Bible, and apparently ignore parts about adding new texts and false prophets...

This thread isn't to debate what is and is not a cult, but to discuss if those who ascribe to our Christian beliefs but believe additional information are in fact truly "saved".

[Knight Fisher]

Oh OK, well I'd say: Ask God.

[Mimi]

but if a person completely believes in the important things about Christ that makes us all Christians, but ALSO believes additional texts written by some other dude, does their additional beliefs null their initial belief in Christ? Are they technically Christians who will go to heaven and find out they were off a bit, or will they miss out on heaven and end up in hell due to their additional doctrines?

If people are in fact saved then they are going to be in heaven, even if they got mixed up in a false religion. The Bible states that you can't lose your salvation right?

[The Top Crusader]

That is open to interpretation.

Although most (not all) who say you CAN lose it would say you could only lose it due to a renouncing of faith or a complete falling away.

But using Mormons again as an example, they are extremely dedicated (generally).

...I wish mainline protestant Christianity would borrow some pages of their playbook as far as outreach, etc. >_>

[SoccerLOTR]

Hmm...well, I don't know if we can really judge their heart--only God knows that. But I think some of it depends on which beliefs they follow. I've done some study of Mormonism, and it has a strong element of "salvation by works" to it...so it depends on if they accept Jesus as Savior and view Him as the only Lord, and worship God only. All depends on where their hearts are. And it is interesting to see what beliefs are common and what beliefs are deeper in the doctrine that half the Mormons don't even think about/know about (i.e. becoming gods themselves). I think that some of the surface beliefs that new Mormons have line up a lot with Christians--so yeah, a lot really depends on if the person has accepted Christ, or if they think they can get there by works alone.

[Jeremy]

Something I think about from time to time because I know a lot of people who certainly consider themselves Christians, and as a technicality they indeed are (they do 100% believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and came to earth to die for our sins and rose again on the third day and they have accepted them as their Lord and King, etc etc), but....... they are Mormons or something.

Now inevitably Catholicism will be brought in as well and that is to be expected... but I'm more looking at Mormonism myself.

Now I totally think that Joseph Smith was a false prophet and therefore the Book of Mormon does not have divine inspiration... but if a person completely believes in the important things about Christ that makes us all Christians, but ALSO believes additional texts written by some other dude, does their additional beliefs null their initial belief in Christ? Are they technically Christians who will go to heaven and find out they were off a bit, or will they miss out on heaven and end up in hell due to their additional doctrines?

Well, to take the Mormonism example, have they trusted in Jesus Christ for salvation if they are trusting in Jesus plus their own works? Or are they believing a "different gospel" (2 Corinthians 11:4, Galatians 1:6-9)? Also, do they believe in Jesus or do they believe in "another Jesus" (2 Corinthians 11:4)?

Jeremy

[Amethystic]

http://listverse.com/2008/02/04/top-10- ... n-beliefs/

This list seemed relevant to the conversation.

[John Chrysostom]

I think that the areas which Christians must not deviate from are the ones expressed in the Nicene Creed http://www.goarch.org/chapel/liturgical_texts/creed

I think the LDS belief in multiple gods rules them out right away as does their belief in two natures of Christ.

[SoccerLOTR]

I think the LDS belief in multiple gods rules them out right away as does their belief in two natures of Christ.

The thing is, that gets into their deeper theology--many mormons start out just believing in Jesus and worshiping God--no multiple gods. I think some Mormons may make it to heaven provided they don't get corrupted by the furthering of their faith by studying the writings of Joseph Smith.

[John Chrysostom]

I've always been confused when people say things like such and such denomination can have Christians in it as long as the individuals don't actually believe everything the denomination teaches. Having recently being on the receiving end of that statement from friends I can say that it is extremely insulting to be told that.

When you tell Catholics and Eastern Orthodox that what you're telling them is that their fellow Church members, their priest, their bishops, and their friends at Church are intentionally trying to lead them astray from the "real" Christianity. You're telling them to undermine thousands of years of tradition in favor for what you believe is right. Also it's most likely that the specific beliefs that you're tearing down and saying no "true" Christian can hold is one that they do actually hold.

Now that being said I think that when a denomination holds beliefs that deny the nature of God and of Christ's incarnation then we need to speak out against that. But trying to tell someone they can be a member of a denomination and be Christian as long as they reject certain beliefs held by that denomination isn't helpful and will just end up insulting that person.

[SoccerLOTR]

I've always been confused when people say things like such and such denomination can have Christians in it as long as the individuals don't actually believe everything the denomination teaches. Having recently being on the receiving end of that statement from friends I can say that it is extremely insulting to be told that.

When you tell Catholics and Eastern Orthodox that what you're telling them is that their fellow Church members, their priest, their bishops, and their friends at Church are intentionally trying to lead them astray from the "real" Christianity. You're telling them to undermine thousands of years of tradition in favor for what you believe is right. Also it's most likely that the specific beliefs that you're tearing down and saying no "true" Christian can hold is one that they do actually hold.

Now that being said I think that when a denomination holds beliefs that deny the nature of God and of Christ's incarnation then we need to speak out against that. But trying to tell someone they can be a member of a denomination and be Christian as long as they reject certain beliefs held by that denomination isn't helpful and will just end up insulting that person.

If you're referring to what I said, I was definitely not speaking against Catholics or Eastern Orthodox Christians here. If you were making a general comment regarding the topic, just ignore the rest of this comment. I don't think the LDS are a Christian denomination, though the beginnings of their faith are rooted in Christianity, but then modified by Joseph Smith, who turned it into what it is today. And I wouldn't say their leaders are intentionally leading them away from the "real" Christianity--I think they are misled themselves. The fact is, many Mormons I've heard have not believed in people becoming gods and do believe in salvation through Christ, though they believe that works must also be done to ensure salvation or a better place in heaven--something along those lines. I think some of these people, according to the beliefs they currently hold, will be saved. But if someone attends a church that emphasizes human glorification and self-salvation and comes to believe in those things, which are directly against the Bible, they will not end up with God.

[John Chrysostom]

I know you specifically aren't speaking out against Catholics and Eastern Orthodox but I'm sure they're just on the edge of this debate so I thought I'd preemptively address the issue.

As for your other point, I'm not sure what you mean when you say Joseph Smith modified their beliefs, he was the founder of their religion so I'm not sure what you're saying he modified.

I think my main point though is it's not helpful to tell Mormons, or anyone you disagree with for that matter, to say that attending a church which emphasizes human glorification and self-salvation is fine as long as you don't come to believe in them why would that be okay? To me that's like saying it's okay to be inside a burning house as long as you don't catch on fire. Growing up my family attended a lot of churches that we didn't agree with on what I now consider some pretty core doctrinal issues and it really messed me up until I found my current Church. I truly don't understand why or how someone would attend a church where they disagree very strongly with the leadership in that church, not even mentioning the rest of the supposed church body you're suppose to be a part of, how can you be in obedience to your pastor if you disagree on doctrines that you both think are core to the faith?

[SoccerLOTR]

I know you specifically aren't speaking out against Catholics and Eastern Orthodox but I'm sure they're just on the edge of this debate so I thought I'd preemptively address the issue.

As for your other point, I'm not sure what you mean when you say Joseph Smith modified their beliefs, he was the founder of their religion so I'm not sure what you're saying he modified.

No...he modified the Christian beliefs--took basic beliefs from the Bible, declared it to be incomplete and have errors, and added a bunch of his own stuff to create what we now know as Mormonism.

I think my main point though is it's not helpful to tell Mormons, or anyone you disagree with for that matter, to say that attending a church which emphasizes human glorification and self-salvation is fine as long as you don't come to believe in them why would that be okay? To me that's like saying it's okay to be inside a burning house as long as you don't catch on fire. Growing up my family attended a lot of churches that we didn't agree with on what I now consider some pretty core doctrinal issues and it really messed me up until I found my current Church. I truly don't understand why or how someone would attend a church where they disagree very strongly with the leadership in that church, not even mentioning the rest of the supposed church body you're suppose to be a part of, how can you be in obedience to your pastor if you disagree on doctrines that you both think are core to the faith?

Also not quite what I was saying...A. I would definitely not be that insensitive to Mormons, and B. I didn't say it was fine to attend that type of church. I'm saying that some Mormon churches don't address some of the more controversial issues in the average sermon, and therefore, members of those churches may hold more of a Christian view of things, including a relationship with Jesus and not believing in people becoming gods--and some of those people I think can be Christians--if they have the basic tenants down. But there are other churches that will teach some of the more strictly-Mormon beliefs and neglect the more Christian ones--and I have doubts about whether any of them are "Christian" so to speak. That's all I'm saying--I'm not gonna go around and tell Mormons that they can go to their non-Christian church as long as they don't accept the beliefs--that wouldn't make sense. I agree, I would not attend a church where I disagreed with the theology, and neither should others.

[John Chrysostom]

Ah, my mistake I understand what you're saying now.

Yes if people are in ignorance of the LDS true beliefs then yes they have more of a Christian view than those who are not ignorant of the LDS true beliefs. However the question originally asked was does belief in the parts Joseph Smith added make them non-Christians and I think the answer is yes. We could debate how many Mormons really believe all that extra stuff but I think the point is moot since those extra beliefs are what make them Mormons. I mean if there was a group which identified themselves as Mormons but didn't believe in the extra parts added by Joseph Smith what makes them them Mormons? I mean believing in just those basic tenants is Non-Denominational Evangelical Protestantism, almost all denominations have extra parts whether they are simply prescribed normative's for Christian living, prescribed order of service, unique theological stances, or self imposed requirements for salvation.

I think that's what Catholics and Eastern Orthodox get upset at when people say they can be Christian as long as they don't believe in all that extra stuff the Catholics and Orthodox believe, those things are what makes us Catholic and Orthodox and to be honest not believing in them is what the Reformation did so getting rid of those extra things would mean we would cease to be Catholic or Orthodox. Not saying anyone made this point just explaining why I can see where the Mormons are coming from.

So all that being said my point would be this; unless you are a very modern Protestant church that doesn't have denominational ties you are going to have something that sets you apart from other churches and I think the guide for what is an acceptable range of differences is found within the Nicene Creed. Deviation from the Creed means your denomination is not Christian is my opinion. If you attend a church like an LDS church and are totally ignorant of the deviations from the Creed occurring in your church I would question whether you can really be defined as a member of the church or denomination. If you choose to be blissfully ignorant of all but the basic tenants or you choose not to believe anything extra beyond them then I would say you would be an Evangelical Protestant.

[SoccerLOTR]

Hmm...I see what you're saying, and that's true. And it's frustrating that denominations become so intent on fighting each other and condemning the others that they neglect actually being a Christian and working together as one body of Christ for good. It's fine to discuss denominational differences, but when the denominations become at war with one another, it is a shame and not very good witness to others.
I really don't think even the modern non-denominational churches are really "neutral"--they have their own beliefs and teach from their perspective and their understanding...not that it is a bad thing, but I don't know if a church can really have no opinion on some issues, despite claims otherwise.

[John Chrysostom]

But how can we focus on being "just" a Christian? I think that these so called "extra" things are core to each denominations identity and being. It seems to me when people are saying we need to focus more on being "just" a Christian they're really saying we need have views closer to them.

I know for Orthodoxy there are a lot more core issues than just what might be called the "basics" that we believe the Church needs to be in agreement about and I imagine it's the same with many other denominations as well.

But all that being said yes it is unfortunate when denominations fight, we should be able to work together on some things despite our differences.