Communion

[John Chrysostom]

Oh? Why is it true? And yes it is rude, we have several Catholics on this site who will offended by your statement.

[Knight Fisher]

Well that's just rude.

No it wasn't. And it's still true.

WW an excerpt from the CCDS rules. While this isn't in here they should still be followed in a debate.

Rules:

Point 1: Doctrinal differences does not imply someone is not a Christian.
There are many arguments within the church that have been debated for centuries in church history. The simple fact of the matter is most of these arguments have no baring on one’s status before God. There are a select few of Non-negotiables that do have a baring on one's conversion but most doctrines are Negotiable. As a member of the Campbell College Debate Society you must be able to debate a Non-negotiable and still respect your opponents as fellow Christians and brothers or sisters in Christ. Ephesians 4 talks about having unity of the spirit. As believers, these debates should never cause disunity as a result of ill thinking towards your opponents.

It doesn't matter if you think that you cannot say it. And I believe you to be wrong. You never have the right to say to a person who says they are a Christian you aren't.

[The Top Crusader]

A lot of people generally define Christianity as Protestant Christianity as opposed to Catholic Christianity. It may not be accurate, but it is a common way of looking at things. Hence why people are more likely to say they are a Catholic if they are a Catholic instead of saying they are a Christian if they are a Catholic. There is, though, in my opinion enough difference that I don't see why they wouldn't be considered a different religion. Much like Mormonism. But then if you are going to define Christian as someone who believes Jesus Christ is the son of God who died and rose again for the sins of humanity, then that would make them all Christians.

Anyway, Martin Luthor was cool and all but such a crazy anti-semite that I wouldn't want to base my denomination after him. Although I sometimes wonder if he was onto something at not wanting Revelations in the Bible, but ah well.

[Knight Fisher]

It's Luther. And what is a crazy anti-semite?

[John Chrysostom]

An anti-Semite is someone who writes a book advocating the burning of all synagogues and Jewish houses, the execution of Rabbis, the taking of all Jewish property and their enslavement. http://www.humanitas-international.org/ ... r-jews.htm

Or to put it another way, the mentality in Germany that lead to the Holocaust.

[Knight Fisher]

WHAT!?! When was Martin Luther like that? I'm not seeing it. And Top I think your theology has a lot of flaws too. In fact just about everyone does. For example do you believe in Infant Baptism? My point is. Stop saying people aren't Christians. Mormons are not, yes. But he who Believes and Is Baptized will be saved. Therefore as long as They believe and are baptized they are Christians. Fin!

[The Top Crusader]

WHAT!?! When was Martin Luther like that? I'm not seeing it. And Top I think your theology has a lot of flaws too. In fact just about everyone does. For example do you believe in Infant Baptism?

He was like that in the link Ayn posted.

No, infant baptism is silly. Who wants a wet baby? They stink.

A "baby dedication" is fine but I think baptism is a choice we should make for ourselves.

Anyway, maybe Hitler will have a denomination named after him some day.

My point is. Stop saying people aren't Christians. Mormons are not, yes. But he who Believes and Is Baptized will be saved. Therefore as long as They believe and are baptized they are Christians. Fin!

I'm not, I'm just explaining how people personally define these things, I didn't offer my own opinion. Although you just told me not to say who is or isn't a Christian, and the next sentence say that Mormons are not. Are you Herman Cain or something?

[Knight Fisher]

Mormons are not. And do not claim to be. They are saved by works. Grace Alone, Faith Alone, Scripture Alone. So is Baptism something God does for us. Or we do for God.

[The Top Crusader]

But they are baptized, and they believe Jesus is the son of God and died and rose again.

They do believe that they must do good works in an effort to get as close to God as possible, but that Jesus bridges the final gap. Not sure exactly how that works but still by your definition they believe the right things, they just add on. But then you could argue that Catholics do the same, but you insist they ARE Christians.

[Knight Fisher]

I do not know enough about what Catholics believe to say anything more on the topic. *Cue for Sherlock to walk in.*

[The Top Crusader]

Yeah, I don't really, but I'd say that the interceding of the saints stuff and praying people out of purgatory and the infatuation with Mary is contradictory to typical protestant Christianity. Maybe not so much that they aren't Christians, but still a significant difference.

[Knight Fisher]

Like I said I don't know enough to keep talking. Sherlock or someone will have to read this and post.

[John Chrysostom]

Okay a lot happened while I was eating lunch.

As to Martin Luther read the link I posted or look at this Wikipedia summary of the book http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies
I was hesitant to post the Wikipedia summary because of the questionable nature of Wikipedia and the rather extreme position the article takes that this book by Luther was responsible for the Germans willingness to allow the Holocaust during WWII.

Now as to infant baptism I believe in that and it has been practiced since the earliest days of the Church, I believe it to be a good and Scriptural practice.

As to Mormons they do claim to be Christians and yes they are baptized and believe that Jesus is the son of God and died and rose again. However they believe that Jesus was made not begotten and that God was once a man and that God made Jesus by having literal sex with Mary. That seems to preclude them from being Christian.

As to intercessions of the Saints, prayers for the departed, and veneration of Mary those are historical practices of the Church only abandoned by some of the Reformers such as Zwingli, Luther for example believed in all of those things.

p.s. I will be away until tonight, I'll do my best to respond to everything at that point.

[~JCGJ~]

We have open communion. We believe that anyone is welcome to partake in communion, regradless of denomination, as long as they have truely accepted Jesus into their hearts.

[Knight Fisher]

We have open communion. We believe that anyone is welcome to partake in communion, regradless of denomination, as long as they have truely accepted Jesus into their hearts.

Received, it's something God gives us. Not something we do.

[Whitty Whit]

We have open communion. We believe that anyone is welcome to partake in communion, regradless of denomination, as long as they have truely accepted Jesus into their hearts.

Received, it's something God gives us. Not something we do.

You have to accept a reception...

[Knight Fisher]

It is a gift. You can refuse it. But you receive it. We have had this discussion before WW. And I won.

[Sherlock]

Hey, even Luther was a Catholic once!

As for people saying Catholics aren't Christians...meh, I've heard it before, doesn't really bother me. I have a number of Protestant friends and if you can clarify where your differences are doctrinally without getting nasty, you've won half the battle and are doing better than most everyone in the Middle Ages and Ireland during the past couple of centuries.

Anyway, I was raised Catholic but during homeschooling we used the A-Beka curriculum and all my friends were Evangelicals so I guess I got a lot of exposure to that as well. Not sure what you guys want to know, but I'll see what I can do in terms of the "big" topics:

1) Mary. Catholics think Mary is the Mother of God and was concieved without sin. We get that from the Biblical passage where the Angel appears to Mary and says "Hail, full of grace." The idea here is that one can only be "full of grace" if they don't have the stain of original sin. This isn't to say Mary is divine or that Catholics worship her in any way, but we do believe that she holds a special place in Heaven and that her prayers are very powerful, given how much love and devotion Jesus had for his mother on earth. There's a popular Catholic prayer in latin that roughly translates to "Mary, concieved without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee." Mary is often referred to as Theotokos (Ayn should be familiar with this term more than I) as well as Medatrix (mediator/intercessor).

2) Works. Catholics reject the Protestant view of "sola fide" or that works have no role in justification. Instead we go by the Council of Trent which basically holds that faith and works are co-ordinate sources of justification.

3) Priesthood of all believers. Catholics reject that and have a higherarchical system in place through the process of ordination to such things as the priesthood, deaconate and religious life. Through the graces given at ordination (and through the extensive study of scripture and tradition) priests also play a mediatrix role in Catholic life. They alone, for example, have the ability to consecrate the bread and wine during Communion and only they have the authority (which we believe comes from God) to absolve sins in the sacrament of confession. We call this role in persona Christi (in the place/person of Christ). We believe that the Priest himself has no special significance, he merely conveys and provides the sacraments to us on this earth so that we may benefit from the graces they provide.

4) Eucharist. We believe it is, literally, the Body and Blood of Christ (a belief that even a lot of Catholics struggle with, given the weight of what that means). The fancy, theological term for this is "transubstantiation" which means that, while the appearances of bread and wine remain, the substance changes. This is what we believe happened at the Last Supper in the Bible.


Hope that either clears up or further confuses the issue, let me know if you have any questions.

[Whitty Whit]

KF. "receive" and "accept" are synonyms. Deal with it. In this sense, it's the exact same thing.

[Steve]

I think that people with theological prejeducies should not be allowed to partake/recieve/whatever communion.