The Church

[SoccerLOTR]

What verse is it that you are quoting in the first sentence? If you go by what I see there, we should be in the church building every day and we should rotate eating meals at everyone's house every day.

Yes, God is a God of order, in that worship shouldn't be mass chaos, but it doesn't mean we have to have a bulletin with a laid-out plan for a service while necessarily sitting in a sanctuary. I'm pretty sure the early church met quite often in people's homes...particularly after the temple was destroyed, they would not have had the option of going to the temple. And order...people can be "orderly" and harmonious without being in the church building. My experiences in gathering together with other Christians to worship outside of church--no matter where it has been--has always been a good experience. And it has been orderly...one person praying at a time, people singing together, conversing--even eating--can be and has been what I view to be in "order". It may not be everyone's ideal situation, as people and differing personalities have different ways of relating to God. Some may prefer the order of a carefully laid-out church service, others may appreciate the order of a less traditional event that takes place outside. There is more than one kind of "order". Personally, I enjoy a lot of different ways of meeting together with other Christians and find no way less meaningful or orderly. And question for you...is a Bible study at the pastor's house somehow less holy than one held at the church building?

[John Chrysostom]

The verse is from Acts 2:46 and yes I do think ideally we should be in the church building every day and sharing meals and in the past that has been done.

Well I think it depends largely on the pastors house and the church but no, generally, I don't think one is "holier" than the other and I'm not saying forsake fellowship and worship outside of a church building but I do believe that regular formalized worship has been the normative way of the Church since the Apostles.

[The Top Crusader]

I would say that my most spiritual moments have been around bonfires or living rooms or kitchen tables having prayer and deep theological discussions with friends, for what its worth. More so than in any church pew.

[Aeva]

I would say that my most spiritual moments have been around bonfires or living rooms or kitchen tables having prayer and deep theological discussions with friends, for what its worth. More so than in any church pew.

THIS.

[Whitty Whit]

I would say that my most spiritual moments have been around bonfires or living rooms or kitchen tables having prayer and deep theological discussions with friends, for what its worth. More so than in any church pew.

THIS.

xDD True!

[The Top Crusader]

LOL "pew".

[Jesus' Princess]

I would say that my most spiritual moments have been around bonfires or living rooms or kitchen tables having prayer and deep theological discussions with friends, for what its worth. More so than in any church pew.

That is so true for me as well, it seems like I am more challenged and grow more (at times) in the discussion after church, during the potluck, or at volleyball nights or whatever. Thats not to say that church is unnecessary though.

[TigerintheShadows]

Harking back to the original question--yes, you can, per se, be a born-again Christian without being a member of the church. Church attendance and membership doesn't save you. But it's like baptism--it's an act of obedience. Yes, you can learn about the Bible via theology books, but the church--if it's worth its salt--is what's grounded. It's where you have fellowship with a body of believers. It's not like you can't have that somewhere else, but church itself is the best place to do it.

I suppose I've never really thought about this. I've grown up Southern Baptist in a church that adheres to Bible doctrine. The concept of not going hasn't occurred to me. My pastors have done a lot of sermons straight from Scripture that convict me much more than any theology book or discussion ever has. For me, church is where I learn the most about the Bible, even though I myself study it.

Anyway, if this point has already been made, I'm sorry! I just didn't feel like going through the whole of the thread.

[Knight Fisher]

But it's like baptism--it's an act of obedience.

No. This = no. Let me ask you this. Is it something God does for you, or you do for God.

[bookworm]

But it's like baptism--it's an act of obedience.

No. This = no. Let me ask you this. Is it something God does for you, or you do for God.

It’s both.
God does it (the effect) for you, but you have to choose to do it (the act).

[ique]

Fellowship in a church isn't an option for everyone. And even if it is, it sometimes isn't even fellowship. The pastor at my church gives excellent sermons, so I almost always benefit in going, but I would hardly count my time there as fellowship. A few people come up and make small-talk and we all smile. It feels very shallow.
I can't and don't really expect anything different in that kind of environment, though — the room is already set up in a stage/audience configuration, and there's enough people that I couldn't possibly know all of them. The only thing one COULD do is small-talk with a familiar face.

I benefit so much more from fellowship in houses. Sharing food, talking about real things. It's more intimate and conducive to actual relationships and conversations — and, well, fellowship. It's unfair and incorrect to claim that people must go to a church building for the purpose of fellowship if fellowship isn't happening there.

Unless that small talk is supposed to be fellowship? But I don't think so...

[John Chrysostom]

Well when I say fellowship I don't mean small talk. I mean communion and prayer, I mean coming together as a community of believers to worship together and to be sanctified by the Holy Spirit through the sacraments, together.

I also believe like Acts said that the Church is essential for doctrine, I don't think we can live a Christian life apart from a community of believers. Since day one believers have lived, worshiped, and believed together, not apart or individual.

[TigerintheShadows]

But it's like baptism--it's an act of obedience.

No. This = no. Let me ask you this. Is it something God does for you, or you do for God.

I'm confused--how is "Is it something God does for you, or you do for God" relevant to church attendance not being like baptism, an act of obedience?

[Whitty Whit]

lol @Tiger for not wanting to read the whole thread. I've felt like that. xD

But it's like baptism--it's an act of obedience.

No. This = no. Let me ask you this. Is it something God does for you, or you do for God.

Wait... you're saying that baptism isn't an act of obedience? The whole point of baptism is for you to let others know you're identifying yourself with Christ. Isn't that right?

[John Chrysostom]

No the whole point of Baptism, IMHO, is to be buried with Christ and then resurrected with Him it's so much more than a mere symbol to the world that you're a Christian. It is the beginning of the Christians deification or sanctification or becoming dead to sin so as to be made alive in Christ.

[Whitty Whit]

No the whole point of Baptism, IMHO, is to be buried with Christ and then resurrected with Him it's so much more than a mere symbol to the world that you're a Christian. It is the beginning of the Christians deification or sanctification or becoming dead to sin so as to be made alive in Christ.

Yeah... that's part of the symbolization. (at least, i think symbolization is the correct term. there are so many. )

[Sherlock]

Yeah, I get absolutely no "fellowship" out of going to my church, for that I have friends and stuff and most everyone at my church are young families with little kids anyhow, who have a lot more in common with each other on that level than they do with me. One example of the issues I have about the social activities at my church is that, because they tend to verge really traditional (i.e. keeping to the very specific, defined roles for men and women which I don't have a problem with but personally don't exactly fall into), the theological debate evenings are restricted to men only, whereas there are no similar activities for women other than a prayer group and a bake sale (I don't jest!). Personally, I would love to participate in a theological debate evening, and I can't cook for beans, but that falls outside the margins where I am, so I'm not going to try to get them to change the policy on my account.

The good news is that I don't actually go to my church for fellowship of that kind, I go purely to partake in the sacraments. Fellowship is a nice side-bonus but it's hardly vital or even necessary for my purposes. In fact, a lot of times, I'll go to church when I *know* there won't be anyone there, just to spend time there and read or reflect or pray. I think sometimes people get too worried about the social aspect of Church and I would agree with Top that my best Christian social experiences have been outside the church building proper.

[TigerintheShadows]

A problem with going to a mega church is that there are a crudload of people who go for the sole purpose of fellowship, or because it looks good to say you go. Personally, I love my church, but in a church the size of mine, you really kind of have to have gone there since you were little, or be able to get along really well with new friends.

[Catspaw]

I go to a church with more people than I ever know or even want to know, but that's why my church has lots of small groups that meet during the week. I can't make a close connection with the hundreds of other people who sit in the same service as I do, but I can make a close connection one evening a week when I meet with a small group of other women. That's where we can talk about applying the sermon as a group, talk about common issues, develop accountability ("How are your devotions going? How are you doing with following what you felt that God wanted you to do about [whatever] last week?"), and feel like I'm truly part of a community of believers in a more personal way than on Sunday morning. That part is really important too. I think that both are important. I can have good conversations with friends who aren't part of my church or my small group too, but even though my best friend and I are both Christians, we rarely have those deep spiritual conversations and accountability stuff that are important to spiritual growth. Maybe we're shallow but we both appreciate our (separate) small groups to help keep us on track in addition to church and casual time with friends.

[John Chrysostom]

Why are Sunday mornings really important to you? I'm not being combative or sarcastic I'm genuinely curious as to why you feel that way if all fellowship and growth is taking place at small group.