QnA Evolution

[John Chrysostom]

bookworm: I'm not sure, he may on some level but I also think he just wanted power and getting rid of the undesirables made getting that power easier. As I said though that could have just as easily been inspired by Martin Luther than evolution.

conquestor: We obviously have a different view of history and the philosophy of Marx, I think that's an odd reading but whatever.

[TigerintheShadows]

Both they were inspired and caused by and if you want to be a serious evolutionist you actually must kill useless people because Evolution believes in survival of the fittest.

I didn't see that anyone pointed this out, which surprised me--"survival of the fittest" is actually an idea related to Darwinism, not specifically evolution. Yes, Darwin incorporated the idea of "survival of the fittest" into evolution, but that doesn't mean that all evolutionists believe in "survival of the fittest".

And actually that would be the middle class he hatd. Yep he thought that he was getting rid of the 'unfit'

As far as I've studied, Marx was focused on socialism, where everyone was basically at the same level. He wasn't trying to kill them all off. Marx wrote in a time when everyone was getting into really wealthy territory, living in squalor, or being in-between. He wanted everyone to be at that in-between level--not too rich, not too poor. Only problem is, communism and socialism only work in a system where literally everyone agrees on it, but I digress.

[Christian A.]

I don't think Luther was anywhere near the philosophy of Hitler. Luther believed that Jews were in the wrong and were blasphemous to God because they had rejected His Messiah and were still ignorantly awaiting one that would never come. I don't think he ever said that we should destroy the Jewish race.

Hitler believed that Arians were the highest evolved form of human, and that Jews and Australian aborigines were the lowest evolved, closest to apes. He got his ideas from Darwin's idea of survival of the fittest.

I don't think it's right in any sense to compare Luther to Hitler on this issue.

[Steve]

Here's my question:

Why is "evolution" spelled wrong in the topic title?

[John Chrysostom]

Tell me whether you think this quote comes from Luther or Hitler.

What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews?...First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them....Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed....Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb....Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews....Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping....[T]hen let us emulate the common sense of other nations such as France, Spain, Bohemia, etc., compute with them how much their usury has extorted from us, divide, divide this amicably, but then eject them forever from the country.

[Christian A.]

Tell me whether you think this quote comes from Luther or Hitler.

What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews?...First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them....Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed....Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb....Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews....Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping....[T]hen let us emulate the common sense of other nations such as France, Spain, Bohemia, etc., compute with them how much their usury has extorted from us, divide, divide this amicably, but then eject them forever from the country.

Something's telling me that since you're asking the question, it's from Luther.

Obviously, I personally wouldn't be in favor of any of the things he's suggesting. But I do think he is making a good point. Judaism is a horribly idolatrous and blasphemous religion that totally perverts nearly everything God meant to say in the OT. I do, however, think vengeance is the Lord's, so although we can pray that He will do justice and crush the spreading of lies, we should follow Jesus' command to love our enemies and do good to them.

[TigerintheShadows]

Obviously, I personally wouldn't be in favor of any of the things he's suggesting. But I do think he is making a good point. Judaism is a horribly idolatrous and blasphemous religion that totally perverts nearly everything God meant to say in the OT. I do, however, think vengeance is the Lord's, so although we can pray that He will do justice and crush the spreading of lies, we should follow Jesus' command to love our enemies and do good to them.

Um, how is Judaism idolatrous or a perversion? I get the blasphemy part, but it's not a horrible religion. It was given to point us to Christ. Jews essentially believe everything that we do sans the New Testament. They believe in the same God we do. Maybe they're still waiting on the Messiah, but that doesn't make them idolatrous, nor does it mean that they are perverting the Old Testament. Unless you're wanting to call Christians idolatrous and perverted, I'd definitely rethink this.

[Christian A.]

Um, how is Judaism idolatrous or a perversion? I get the blasphemy part, but it's not a horrible religion. It was given to point us to Christ. Jews essentially believe everything that we do sans the New Testament. They believe in the same God we do. Maybe they're still waiting on the Messiah, but that doesn't make them idolatrous, nor does it mean that they are perverting the Old Testament. Unless you're wanting to call Christians idolatrous and perverted, I'd definitely rethink this.

Do you believe that Muslims believe in the same God as Jews and Christians? Just because we share a portion of the Bible doesn't mean that we believe in the same God. If they don't believe in the God that eternally exists in 3 persons and became flesh and blood in the person of Jesus Christ, then they don't believe in the same God we do.

Therefore, they believe in the wrong God, a God which is not the God of the OT, so they are perverting the OT.

[TigerintheShadows]

Do you believe that Muslims believe in the same God as Jews and Christians?

That god, Allah, has many more discrepencies between itself and Yahweh than the Jewish and Christian religions have. It would be illogical to claim that they are one and the same when the doctrines about them are so far apart.

You still haven't told me how they're idolatrous, though.

[Christian A.]

If you worship any God besides the one true God, you are an idolator. I explained why they worship the wrong God, thus showing that they are idolatrous.

[TigerintheShadows]

If you worship any God besides the one true God, you are an idolator. I explained why they worship the wrong God, thus showing that they are idolatrous.

-sighs- I disagree with you on many a count, but that's not what this thread is about, and we're only getting more and more off-track. I will only say that going around telling people how idolatrous and blasphemous a minority religion is, especially one that has been persecuted for literally thousands of years, and who are, whether you think they worship Him or not, God's chosen people...yeah, that's in pretty freaking poor taste if you ask me.

[Blitz]

As far as I've studied, Marx was focused on socialism, where everyone was basically at the same level. He wasn't trying to kill them all off. Marx wrote in a time when everyone was getting into really wealthy territory, living in squalor, or being in-between. He wanted everyone to be at that in-between level--not too rich, not too poor. Only problem is, communism and socialism only work in a system where literally everyone agrees on it, but I digress.

Indeed he wanted to remove the middle class from society. It is debated whether he meant to kill them but I quote from him

They must be swept out of the way and made impossible

He claimed history was a class struggle between the rich and the poor. And the poor must win out. He unlike Socialism believed in force.

[Christian A.]

If you worship any God besides the one true God, you are an idolator. I explained why they worship the wrong God, thus showing that they are idolatrous.

-sighs- I disagree with you on many a count, but that's not what this thread is about, and we're only getting more and more off-track. I will only say that going around telling people how idolatrous and blasphemous a minority religion is, especially one that has been persecuted for literally thousands of years, and who are, whether you think they worship Him or not, God's chosen people...yeah, that's in pretty freaking poor taste if you ask me.

I happen to disagree with you that ethnic Israel is God's chosen people, but, yeah, like you said, that isn't the topic.

[Steve]

I stil want to know why we're debating this when the topic at hand is:

EVOLUTION is spelled wrong in the title.

I will continue to do this until it is rectified.

[TigerintheShadows]

Steve, you are such a troll.

[Steve]

Steve, you are such a troll.

No... more of an orc...

[bookworm]

I noticed that as soon as the thread was started. I could change it, but I thought maybe it was done on purpose since conquestor could too and he hadn’t, so I left it.

[Steve]

I guess it takes a good troll/orc to get things right.

[TigerintheShadows]

Science evidence coming from a world view which requires those ideas.

I don’t know why, but I was cruising back through this thread and came upon this little gem. It seems that conquestor is saying that our worldview must be based on faith more than on logic (correct me if my interpretation is wrong). A Christian worldview really does require logic, though. We’re not told to have a blind faith; we are told to give a reason for the hope that we have—surely logic falls into that mix? There are some aspects of our faith that logic cannot explain, and that’s all well and good, but there are some areas where scientific evidence really is required.

now according to evolution the race of blacks is lower in development than other races.

That was used by racists in England who were trying to prove that they should be allowed to enslave the Africans, not by actual scientists.

[Christian A.]

Umm... Darwin himself said that the Australian aborigines, and I think even Africans, were much lower races among humans in the evolutionary progression. I don't have an exact quote, but I can probably find it if you want it. It logically follows that if there are lower races of animals that have evolved into higher ones, and humans have come from apes, then there must be a lower human "race" that is closer to the apes than others.