abortion bumper sticker

[Termite]

What about the rape victims that allow themselves to be taken to a sketchy back alley by their date, or meet with someone in an abandoned warehouse?

[Guess Who!]

What about the rape victims that allow themselves to be taken to a sketchy back alley by their date, or meet with someone in an abandoned warehouse?

o.O yeah! I've got a good one, what about rape victims who were stupid enough to be born female and failed to sterilize themselves? Wouldn't have gotten pregnant otherwise, see? RESPONSIBILITY!!

[jasonjannajerryjohn]

What about the rape victims that allow themselves to be taken to a sketchy back alley by their date, or meet with someone in an abandoned warehouse?

The definition of rape is that the victim is being made to have sex against their will. What about the person who met with someone in their apartment and was forced sex against their will?

[Termite]

No need to freak, Guess Who!; church seemed absolutely dead set that rape victims can have done no wrong and not be responsible for anything, so I was just furthering the discussion in that aspect.

Exactly, JJJJ. That's where I'd feel completely horrible and couldn't hold the victim responsible. If the man was a complete stranger then I'd question why a woman would put herself is such a vulnerable position, but that was the point of my question. Not every single rape victim is entirely devoid of responsibility. It happens sometimes because girls can be absolute idiots sometimes, but most times just because men are the idiots.

I'd still feel horrible and would hope to be a comfort to her IF the idiot girl made it out of the abandoned warehouse alive, but would silently question 'WHY WOULD YOU GO THERE!?!?!'. Completely irresponsible. It wasn't to be insensitive, it was to point out that like everything rape isn't always black and white. It's horrible either way, and men who force themselves upon women are animals, but it isn't always just his fault. It can be hers for putting herself in a bad situation and not just falling prey to a man's strength.

That was my point. Hopefully I cleared it up now.

[jasonjannajerryjohn]

Men get raped as well both by men and women. And women get raped by women as well. Just throwing that out there, because it does happen. Not that it's particularly relevant to abortion.

[Sherlock]

No need to freak, Guess Who!; church seemed absolutely dead set that rape victims can have done no wrong and not be responsible for anything, so I was just furthering the discussion in that aspect.

Exactly, JJJJ. That's where I'd feel completely horrible and couldn't hold the victim responsible. If the man was a complete stranger then I'd question why a woman would put herself is such a vulnerable position, but that was the point of my question. Not every single rape victim is entirely devoid of responsibility. It happens sometimes because girls can be absolute idiots sometimes, but most times just because men are the idiots.

I'd still feel horrible and would hope to be a comfort to her IF the idiot girl made it out of the abandoned warehouse alive, but would silently question 'WHY WOULD YOU GO THERE!?!?!'. Completely irresponsible. It wasn't to be insensitive, it was to point out that like everything rape isn't always black and white. It's horrible either way, and men who force themselves upon women are animals, but it isn't always just his fault. It can be hers for putting herself in a bad situation and not just falling prey to a man's strength.

That was my point. Hopefully I cleared it up now.

Yeah, but at the same time, as I mentioned earlier, none of us are immune from making stupid decisions. My point is that the stupid decision shouldn't be taken as an open invitation to treat the individual making it any differently.

Re church: My point was that church/charity programs/services offered to teens who are pregnant probably shouldn't treat the teen who got pregnant consensually any differently than the rape victim who did not. I was trying to gauge your feeling on that. Some would, for example, suggest not offering the same services to the teen who got themselves into the situation by choice, because of the need to take responsibility for their own actions.

[church]

church seemed absolutely dead set that rape victims can have done no wrong and not be responsible for anything, so I was just furthering the discussion in that aspect.

I'm not sure exactly what I said to give this impression, I just said rape is extremely damaging to the victim and requires special treatment to deal with that damage. Now, I will say doing something really stupid is not the same as making someone rape them. Meeting someone in a back alley, meeting someone from the internet alone, 'teasing' someone with the intention of frustrating them (that last one is beyond stupid, it's despicable and strikes a nerve with me), but none of them take responsibility from the person who commits the rape. The choice to commit rape is still the person's who does it.

Re church: My point was that church/charity programs/services offered to teens who are pregnant probably shouldn't treat the teen who got pregnant consensually any differently than the rape victim who did not. I was trying to gauge your feeling on that. Some would, for example, suggest not offering the same services to the teen who got themselves into the situation by choice, because of the need to take responsibility for their own actions.

It depends what you mean by different. There shouldn't be a difference in the services offered in terms of counsolling, adoption services, etc. Although the approach to counsolling and similar services should be different. I haven't looked into it at all, but I have heard of Christian organizations that offer cousnolling for women who have had abortions. I think that's a great idea. Now, I don't think the services should work to say that the people involved don't have a responsibilty for there actions as much as saying yes, you screwed up, but it's not over and you're not irredeemable. or something to that effect.

[Termite]

Men get raped as well both by men and women. And women get raped by women as well. Just throwing that out there, because it does happen. Not that it's particularly relevant to abortion.

All too true, but since I thought this came off the babies thing I didn't feel it as relevant. Rape = awful all around, however.

Yeah, but at the same time, as I mentioned earlier, none of us are immune from making stupid decisions. My point is that the stupid decision shouldn't be taken as an open invitation to treat the individual making it any differently.

Exactly, which is why I said I would silently question... this is where tact must prevail- a trait which plenty of Christians should practice more.

And church, shouldn't the counselors helping the girls that gave themselves away also try to help the girls who put themselves into the sketchy situation to learn how to be discerning and not just put blame on the man? Unless they learned from the situation (hopefully they would >_>) what's to stop them from letting it happen again if they don't realize their mistake?

[church]

what's to stop them from letting it happen again if they don't realize their mistake?

I'm pretty sure the rape would help them realize not to do it again...

Trying to tell them what they did wrong isn't a big priority. Rape victims are an an extremely fragile state of mind after being raped, and the reactions vary widely. Some people commit suicide. Some people are terrified to leave their homes, and take a lot of work just to go outside, and some become predators themselves, although not necessarily rapists (there are many types of predators with rapists being the worst, while some are perfectly legal). Handling these problems can take years or never be solved at all.

typically, it is a decision made out of fear, or the feeling of it being a "last resort."

This aspect of our society is something I find despicable. It is more socially acceptable and overall consequence free to kill the baby instead of putting it up for adoption. That we have become fixated on both the quick solution and out of sight out of mind mentality that we take murder as being prefferable to adoption.

Although, if you really want to know, age group 20-29 accounts for over half of abortions in the US. Not people around 15. Only 16% of US abortions are by women younger than 20.


Someone related abortions to the Holocaust earlier and people jumped on them for saying that it could be as bad. But between 1999 and 2008 (the CDC only has data up to 2008) there were 8.4 million abortions. And from 1977 to 1997 there were over 1 million abortions per year in the US. The CDC doesn't give totals and I don't want to add all the data together from 1970 to 2008, but just the 20 years of over 1 million, plus the 8.4 million from 99 to 08...

We have 28 million abortions performed in the US. To poke a sore spot, holocaust death estimates are from 11 million to 26 million. There have been more unborn babies killed legally in the US than people killed in the holocaust.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5212a1.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtm ... 5a1_w#Tab3