Theist (but not a "Christian") Q & A!

[Blitz]

But have you every read a prophesy in which Jesus is contridicted by the Old Testament

[snubs]

If there is a Haven and Hell. Do you believe someone like me (who believes in Jesus Christ as God and dying for my sins and all that) would go to Hell?

If someone said they believe in God, would you think they are automatically going to Heaven (or some other place when they die)?

How would you go about witnessing to someone?

[Christian A.]

Oh, also, if Jesus didn't fulfill any OT prophecies about the Messiah, can you give an example of a prophecy He didn't fulfill? And what is your opinion of the virgin birth? Was that a fulfillment to prophecy, or did it not even happen?

[ric]

If we've lived our lives in such a way that our "bad inclination" side is the weightier, then I don't think we'll have much of a shot at that. We might be separated from him for an eternity.

That being said, I don't believe in Hell.

Hmmmm... considering separation from God for an eternity is the definition of hell, there's a bit of a contradiction there.

Why wouldn't he reveal himself multiple times, in multiple places to multiple people? There is no one religion that has it all right (the fact they are contradictory in some areas should tell you that). And honestly, because people don't come back from the dead to tell us what happens afterward, there really is no verifiable way to KNOW which religion is the right one. That is why it is called belief. In addition to the fact that Christianity is one of the newest religions on the planet. If that's the case, then what about religions that existed before it? Are they wrong because God hadn't ACTUALLY revealed himself yet? They were just worshipping...nothing?

I think it is pretty arrogant for people who believe in a particular religion to claim that God only revealed himself to them through this particular religion and everyone else out there is worshipping a false god or somesuch. Who are we to limit who and where and how God reveals himself? We aren't.

But why would He give contradictory images of himself? Contradictory in ways that, even believing him to be omnipotent and omniscient, it is completely illogical to believe such contradictory beliefs could apply to the same God.

According to the Bible (I'm not referencing the Bible as some sort of historical account here, but merely as the basis of Christian belief) Christianity is based on Judaism, which is pretty much the oldest religion.

If you believe something, you believe you are right and other people are wrong. You can accept others beliefs as possible alternatives, but you cannot say "maybe we're both right." Otherwise, your beliefs are meaningless. You might as well just believe whatever the heck you want for no reason, because "we're probably all right," which would defeat the purpose of "belief."

I am familiar with Lewis' Trilemma argument. I find it to logically fallacious. You are given only three choices and those are supposed to be the only three choices. It's kind of a false dichotomy...trichotomy? As well as a bit of an ad hominem attack.

Another option could be that Jesus never claimed to be God (pretty much were I stand) thereby eliminating the whole issue.

As far as the ad hominem, just because Jesus might have "lied" about this one thing, doesn't automatically discount the merit of any of his other teachings. His other teachings and sermons need to be evaluated in their own right, and the fact he might have lied about being God shouldn't effect that evaluation.

Also, Jesus might have just been a loony bin. That is always a valid possibility.

If you believe Jesus never claimed to be God, then you don't believe in the Jesus of the Bible (the one who claimed to be God). The argument is based on the assumption that the Bible is a true account of what Jesus said and did. If you don't believe the Bible is accurate, then you could believe anything about Jesus, seeing as the Bible, I believe, is pretty much the only document that talks about him in any sort of depth.

The "loony bin" option is one of the choices of the trilemma.

[Christian A.]

If we've lived our lives in such a way that our "bad inclination" side is the weightier, then I don't think we'll have much of a shot at that. We might be separated from him for an eternity.

That being said, I don't believe in Hell.

Hmmmm... considering separation from God for an eternity is the definition of hell, there's a bit of a contradiction there.

I think Kait was referring more to the eternal torment and punishment that is usually associated with the Christian view of hell. Yes, it's separation from God, but it's also misery and eternal isolation and...torture.

[Kait]

So then, do you believe God would just sort of...be gracious and overlook the sins that we've committed, if the good outweighs the bad? You stated earlier that you believe God is just. A just judge who sees any lawbreaking on the table has to oversee the carrying out of some sort of punishment. No matter how many old ladies a pedophile has helped across the street, he still has the pedophilia to answer for. Yes, God is merciful, but He still must be just, so somehow His mercy on us has to be in keeping wt
h His justice. I believe that's where Jesus comes in. What is your opinion on all that?

I believe we are punished for our earthly sins here on earth. Karma, "what goes around comes around", etc. Whatever you want to call it, all of our actions have consequences and bad actions have bad consequences...maybe not in the near future, but eventually they will.



I

By objective reality I mean what is true, moral, and right for me is true, moral, and right for you as well.

Is the way in which God reveals Himself universally constant or does it depend on the individual?

Uhm... I honestly don't know about the objective reality. I feel like there is a particular standard of morality-- that which God has established, that should be followed by everybody but the interpretation of what that morality is is subjective. Soooo...I have no idea.


The method God uses to reveal himself can vary greatly, I suppose. I'm not one to put him in a box and say he only reveals himself in certain ways.

But have you every read a prophesy in which Jesus is contridicted by the Old Testament

Well he didn't FULFILL any of them. Soooo..I suppose? I'm not sure what you are asking, exactly.

If there is a Haven and Hell. Do you believe someone like me (who believes in Jesus Christ as God and dying for my sins and all that) would go to Hell?

If someone said they believe in God, would you think they are automatically going to Heaven (or some other place when they die)?

How would you go about witnessing to someone?

I don't believe in Hell. So no, you wouldn't go to Hell.

I wouldn't automatically believe it, no. They would need to prove it through their actions that they do indeed serve God. Hitler said he was a Christian but I'm not so sure I'll be seeing him up there.

By living my life the best I know how. I hate, hate, hate the whole "Hey random person on the street, do you believe in GOD!?" because I think it's a really ineffective way to do things. I will live my life the best I can, love everyone equally, and give of myself...maybe someone will see the joy and fulfillment I find in that and ask me about it. Then I'm more than willing to share. =)

Oh, also, if Jesus didn't fulfill any OT prophecies about the Messiah, can you give an example of a prophecy He didn't fulfill? And what is your opinion of the virgin birth? Was that a fulfillment to prophecy, or did it not even happen?

I gave an example above. If you want more, it would be best if you presented me with a prophecy you believe he DID fulfill and I will go from there. I really have no opinion on the virgin birth, honestly. It isn't necessarily true.

And if it did, it still isn't really a fulfillment of prophecy. The word in the prophecy that is translated "virgin" can also mean "young girl".

Hmmmm... considering separation from God for an eternity is the definition of hell, there's a bit of a contradiction there.

No, no. That is what I believe "hell" IS. I grew up believing Hell was a fiery pit of eternal torture and suffering. Which is also the definition most Christian's I know have of Hell. I don't believe in that version. It isn't biblical and it goes against the nature of God. As far as what "eternal separation from God" means, I am not entirely sure WHAT that is. Maybe you are just cast outside of heaven. Maybe you just die, never achieving the opportunity to be with God for eternity. I don't know. But it isn't a fiery pit.

But why would He give contradictory images of himself? Contradictory in ways that, even believing him to be omnipotent and omniscient, it is completely illogical to believe such contradictory beliefs could apply to the same God.

This is where people often get me wrong. I do NOT believe that every religion is entirely correct about God. But there are very similar aspects and definitions of God in most religions, even if there are some contradictory details. Basically I see God as this painting. No one can see the whole entire thing. Some folks even happen to be looking at the painting in a different kind of lighting, seeing things that might not actually be there. But we aren't looking at a different painting.

According to the Bible (I'm not referencing the Bible as some sort of historical account here, but merely as the basis of Christian belief) Christianity is based on Judaism, which is pretty much the oldest religion.

No, it isn't. Judaism isn't even close to being the oldest religion. Hinduism is thousands of years older than Judaism and there are many, many more ancient religions that are long gone and dead that came long before Judaism.

If you believe something, you believe you are right and other people are wrong. You can accept others beliefs as possible alternatives, but you cannot say "maybe we're both right." Otherwise, your beliefs are meaningless. You might as well just believe whatever the heck you want for no reason, because "we're probably all right," which would defeat the purpose of "belief."

I never said that everyone has to accept that everyone else is right. But we need to not discount the fact that NO ONE can possibly have it ALL right, which is why it is, like you said, important to "accept other beliefs as possible alternatives".

If you believe Jesus never claimed to be God, then you don't believe in the Jesus of the Bible (the one who claimed to be God). The argument is based on the assumption that the Bible is a true account of what Jesus said and did. If you don't believe the Bible is accurate, then you could believe anything about Jesus, seeing as the Bible, I believe, is pretty much the only document that talks about him in any sort of depth.

The "loony bin" option is one of the choices of the trilemma.

No, actually. The verses that are interpreted to say Jesus is claiming to be God don't necessarily mean that at all. I can take the bible and go through all those verses and offer alternate explanations that fit perfectly within he historical context of the time. There are a few verses, also, that were added later on in the translation process that weren't there in the first place. Some of those verses are more explicit about Jesus being God, but honestly I don't really count those because they weren't in the orignal manuscripts.

And the Bible *IS* the only document that talks about him in any sort of depth. There are only two other historical documents, outside the bible and apocryphal texts from the time of Jesus' birth to 100 years after his death that talk about him. And they only briefly mention him at that.


And while I am willing to continue answering questions about Hell, if you guys want to actually get into a discussion/debate, it might be wise to move over to CCDS.

[Kait]

I'm just saying IF there was a 'Hell' (or separation from God thing that you talk about), would I go to Hell (or be separated from God) for believing the way I do?

If you are asking if you would go to Hell based entirely on the fact that you believe in God a different way than I do, then no. Not at all.

[snubs]

Okay. Yeah, that's what I was asking.

[American Eagle]

Note: Discussion of hell/sinners/torment/etc. has been crudely moved to this topic.

[Sapphire]

You said you use to be Messianic. What made you change to being a Theist?

[Astronomer]

What about the death's of the apostles (Matthew, Peter, etc.)? They probably would have known whether or not Jesus rose from the dead. They died terrible deaths believing that Jesus rose from the dead. Also, if they (knowing that Jesus didn't rise from the dead) cruelly led hundreds of others to die believing that Jesus did rise from the dead, then why would you even think that Jesus is a good teacher? If the people that knew him best were that cruel and were following Jesus teachings, then how could Jesus possibly be good?

[Christian A.]

What about the death's of the apostles (Matthew, Peter, etc.)? They probably would have known whether or not Jesus rose from the dead. They died terrible deaths believing that Jesus rose from the dead. Also, if they (knowing that Jesus didn't rise from the dead) cruelly led hundreds of others to die believing that Jesus did rise from the dead, then why would you even think that Jesus is a good teacher? If the people that knew him best were that cruel and were following Jesus teachings, then how could Jesus possibly be good?

Yes, I echo this question. Why would Jesus' disciples die martyrs' deaths for what they knew was a lie? And why would they be so eager to spread the message of Jesus all over the world? And why did they succeed, if there was no supernatural power involved?

[Kait]

You said you use to be Messianic. What made you change to being a Theist?

Uhm...long story short we had a majorly bad experience in our messianic community. That turned me off to God entirely for awhile. I pretty much went haywire in my life. Hehe. When I finally got things back on track I realized I still believed in God but that I had absolutely no faith in religion. This lead me on an epic journey of study, research, truth and discovery! And to where I'm at now.

And I am 1000 times more comfortable with what I believe now. And I have a closer relationship with God than I've ever had.

What about the death's of the apostles (Matthew, Peter, etc.)? They probably would have known whether or not Jesus rose from the dead. They died terrible deaths believing that Jesus rose from the dead. Also, if they (knowing that Jesus didn't rise from the dead) cruelly led hundreds of others to die believing that Jesus did rise from the dead, then why would you even think that Jesus is a good teacher? If the people that knew him best were that cruel and were following Jesus teachings, then how could Jesus possibly be good?

See answer above to the question about the martyrs. But for the sake of argument, let's say that Jesus DID actually rise from the dead...to me, this doesn't really do much to convince me he is the Messiah. He still didn't fulfill any prophecies. And there are a few people in the old testament who were resurrected and Elijah never even died, he "ascended" to heaven. Pretty Jesus-like, really.

In any case, just because he was resurrected doesn't mean he is the Messiah. And obviously the apostles believed he was, hence the reason they would have given their lives and spread the news and whatnot.

[Astronomer]

If Jesus had fulfilled prophecies foretold of the messiah, would you believe he was Christ then?

[snubs]

Do you believe in the book of Revelation?

[John Chrysostom]

For what purpose, do you think, God created man?

[thegr8stever]

Hello i am wondering how this is possible believing in God but not Jesus they are one and the same God is from the bible as well as Jesus dieing on the cross to save us from our sins you cant simply take the bible in context

[John Chrysostom]

If you'd read the thread you'd discover Kaits answer to your question. Please make sure you read threads before posting to avoid this in the future. Also this is a Q&A thread but you're just suppose to ask questions not answer them as well.

[Kait]

If Jesus had fulfilled prophecies foretold of the messiah, would you believe he was Christ then?

I would be far more convinced than I am currently.

Do you believe in the book of Revelation?

Errr...not really? I guess? I'm not a big fan of believing in the complete inerrancy of the bible, especially the new testament. So while I don't rule out the idea that it is legit prophecy, I'm not going to jump on board all gung-ho and start saying that cell phones are the Mark of the Beast...if you know what I mean.

I'm not really into the end-times stuff in general, though. Because either way there isn't much we can do about the world coming to an end, aside from live our life in there here and now to the best of our ability. So if I did believe in Revelation, it wouldn't have much bearing on my everyday life.

For what purpose, do you think, God created man?

I really don't know. I don't believe it was for any sort of self-fulfilling purpose because God doesn't *need* anything. He certainly doesn't NEED our love or devotion. And I don't think he would be selfish enough for that to be the sole purpose of our existence.

I might get back to you on this after I've had time to think on it.

Hello i am wondering how this is possible believing in God but not Jesus they are one and the same God is from the bible as well as Jesus dieing on the cross to save us from our sins you cant simply take the bible in context

What Ayn said.

[snubs]

Does this mean you don't believe in much of the Bible at all? Like, what about the story of Joseph and Moses? Do you believe in those? And do you believe in any of the New Testament?