Can unsaved people get into Heaven?

[The Old Judge]

Okay, John, if you don't mind, I'm going to jump into this discussion.

If you accept God's Sacrificial Lamb, His only Son, and repent of your sins and ask Him to free you of the clutches of sin and carnality, you are saved, and you are going to Heaven no matter what. It's a gift you can't lose. Period.

With unsaved people, that's more difficult to answer. For the pagan native on some barren island where no missionary has ever landed to preach the Truth, I'm not sure what will happen there. God will deal with him as He knows best, and that's fine. However, because he has worshiped idols his whole life, there's a good chance he could still go to Hell.

In America, it's different. There's a church on every corner, practically, and about every town has at least one church that still preaches the truth. If somebody wanted it, they could get in their car and drive a couple blocks. But, as you have already expressed, "Why would somebody who thinks Christianity is a false belief go to such lengths to find out about it?" And you are absolutely correct. That's where soulwinning, or visitation, comes into the picture.

During the months of August through May, I go soulwinning with a group from my church on Wednesdays. Revival doesn't break out on the street we go to, but that's okay. We make positive contact with a bunch of people, and leave the door open for many of them to possibly one day accept the Lord. And that's what we're supposed to do.

One day in April or May, I knocked on a door, and a man in his mid-20s came out. After introducing myself, I asked, "Sir, at any point in your life have you accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Savior?" He tactlessly replied, "For asking that, you can get off my porch right now," and he shut the door. Now, I bear no ill will toward him. Maybe one day he will accept Jesus. That would be fantastic. However, he has had people come to him and ask him if he has ever accepted the Lord, concerned about nothing but his soul and its eternal destination. But he denied. And I believe that people that hear the Word presented to them in a clear fashion, deny it, and never accept Him at any point in their lives, will go to Hell, because they missed their opportunity. They have no excuse.

[John Chrysostom]

I don't mind if you join in the conversation. But right away, I don't agree with once saved, always saved. The example you gave doesn't sound like a positive experience for anyone involved. You have no idea who this person is or where they've been. If you asked me if at any point in your life have you accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Savior? I would say yes, several times as a young child before I became an atheist in college. So just asking that question tells you next to nothing about that person's current state of faith or what their journey has been like, so why do it? Are you attempting to get them to say they accept Christ as Lord and Savior? Mentally accepting a belief without living a Christian life does not save you, to clarify I'm not arguing for works based salvation but am saying what St. James said. Faith without works is dead.

[The Old Judge]

Okay, why would you have to accept Him more than once, and what makes you "lose" your salvation. That sounds like an even more unpleasant experience. If I believed that, I would constantly live in fear of losing the gift of God. I much rather prefer the belief that no matter what I do or how many wrongs I commit, I can always run back into my Savior's arms.

With our soulwinning, however, what we do is ask that question to get a kind of scope of what's going on with that person. Some people are open and receptive: "No, I've never done that before." We take them through the plan of salvation, and if they want to, we can help lead them to the Lord. If they've had a "falling out" with God, we offer to pray for them, and then invite them to our church. Granted, if somebody's away from God or under conviction, that may sound unpleasant, but rather the sting for a minute than the scorching pain of Hell for eternity.

[John Chrysostom]

I wouldn't say you have to "accept" Christ more than once and I wouldn't say you "lose" your salvation. Especially since, until judgement day we haven't gained our salvation. I would say that our Christian life is a journey, not a one stop destination where you are saved and never have to do anything ever again. But let me ask you this, if someone is living an unrepentant life of sin are they still saved?

How would you describe this plan of salvation?

[The Old Judge]

First of all, define "unrepentant."

If I came to somebody's door, led them to the Lord, but then they go out that night and party like there's no tomorrow, get drunk, do other unmentionable horrors, etc., then I'd say it probably wasn't sincere, which in that case would make what they said hollow and meaningless.

However, if somebody gets saved, means it, but then hits a hard time in their life and falls in with the wrong crowd, I'd say it's different. They loved Jesus, and deep in their heart they probably know what they're doing is wrong, and there's hope for them to turn and come back to God. In that case, I'd say in that case the person is still saved.

[John Chrysostom]

I would define unrepentant as the first example you gave. I've heard your answer before, they weren't "really" saved. But I've never really accepted that, what if this behavior occurs not that night but after years of involvement in a church community? Was that all insincere? In either case, how do we read their hearts and motives?

I wonder though, what is this fascination with being saved as a one time thing? Doesn't salvation encompass our entire life? The good and the bad times.

[The Old Judge]

About the "fascination", as you say, it's not a one-time thing. What you're thinking of is the moment when people accept Jesus Christ. And, yes, throughout one's life they should strive to be more like God, and serve Him because of our love for Him. Not that I'm excusing it, but if someone turns to the world after years of serving God and church involvement, people do fall. There's not always answers for it. But I know people like that, and I believe that they're still saved.

[John Chrysostom]

Hmm, I disagree but lets get back to one of my earlier points.

When you do this door to door evangelizing, how do you lay out the plan of salvation to people?

[Dasi]

to get back to your eariler posts those 2 people that talked to me. I actually do care about what other people have to say I just don't have much time like I said before and if I had more time I would love to look at them. and about my post I said what I said because there is only one way to get to Heaven and in the Bible it says what that way is. And what I posted is what the Bible says how to get to Heaven.

[John Chrysostom]

When you take the time to read the discussion, you'll see that we are discussing various interpretations of what Scripture says about heaven and hell. Yours is one interpretation, read some other ones.

[Dasi]

actually, John Crysotam, there is only one way to Heaven...so I don't see why you are debating that...it's clear in the Bible. just go look at the Bible.

[John Chrysostom]

No, it's not clear in the Bible. If it was then there wouldn't be thousands of Christian denominations, all with different views on heaven and hell. Yes there is one way to heaven, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved, but that's not all there is to the Christian life and to heaven and hell. Just look at the Bible doesn't solve the issue.

[Jehoshaphat]

About the pagan people who have never heard of Christ, I once heard it put this way. People always ask what is God going to do about those people. My response is what are you doing about all the people who have never heard of God. We are all called to be missionaries even if it is just in your own home. But if you don't witness you will be held responsible for those who you could have told.

[Christian A.]

If people who have never heard of Jesus get into heaven based on their ignorance, then the worst thing we can do for them is seek to evangelize the world. We might as well never send missionaries to foreign countries where people have not been exposed to the gospel, because to do so would be to ruin their chance at heaven, unless they actually believed the gospel. To me, it really makes no sense, and I think it just comes from a human viewpoint of justice that doesn't really take into account God's viewpoint.

[Astronomer]

If people who have never heard of Jesus get into heaven based on their ignorance, then the worst thing we can do for them is seek to evangelize the world. We might as well never send missionaries to foreign countries where people have not been exposed to the gospel, because to do so would be to ruin their chance at heaven, unless they actually believed the gospel.

Isn't this like saying "babies go to heaven when they die, so we shouldn't stop abortion"? If you look at it that way, abortion is the best means of sending people to heaven.
I don't think the point of the gospel was to send people to heaven, it was to bring about Jesus' Kingdom on earth. Hence Jesus saying, "Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven (not Kingdom IN Heaven) is near." Matthew 4:17.

[Christian A.]

If people who have never heard of Jesus get into heaven based on their ignorance, then the worst thing we can do for them is seek to evangelize the world. We might as well never send missionaries to foreign countries where people have not been exposed to the gospel, because to do so would be to ruin their chance at heaven, unless they actually believed the gospel.

Isn't this like saying "babies go to heaven when they die, so we shouldn't stop abortion"? If you look at it that way, abortion is the best means of sending people to heaven.

Ahem. Yes, I suppose you could look at it that way, but... I don't necessarily believe the Bible says that babies go to heaven when they die... *prepares for the onslaught*

I don't think the point of the gospel was to send people to heaven, it was to bring about Jesus' Kingdom on earth. Hence Jesus saying, "Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven (not Kingdom IN Heaven) is near." Matthew 4:17.

I agree. The kingdom of Christ is in the hearts of His people. But He doesn't reign in the hearts of those who have never heard of Him, just because they didn't have the chance to nominally reject Him. They reject Him when they sin. We all deserve hell, whether we know that we're committing our sins against Jesus or not. None of us deserves a spot in heaven. So if God chooses that some people are going to hear the name of Jesus and some aren't, that's His prerogative. And that's why it's our job to get the gospel out to as many souls as possible.

[John Chrysostom]

Could you expand on why you think babies who die don't go to heaven?

But what good does our spreading of the Gospel do if God decides who deserves His mercy or not?

[Samantha14]

I don't necessarily believe the Bible says that babies go to heaven when they die... *prepares for the onslaught*

And just why not?

I mean, I know that the Bible doesn't directly say they do... But...

[Christian A.]

Could you expand on why you think babies who die don't go to heaven?

Ugh. I knew I should have kept my big mouth shut... But today is $10 post day, so, what the heck?

The wages of sin is death. Babies are conceived with original sin, meaning not only that they are automatically bent toward evil, but they are held accountable for the sin of our first parents, because Adam was our representative in Eden. His actions were the actions of the whole human race. One illustration I've heard is this: If you're playing football and one player makes a foul, the whole team gets penalized. The other teammates didn't personally commit any offense, but they as a group are held accountable. They may, arguably, be justly frustrated with the teammate who committed the foul, but they can't do anything to change it.

So... I know how unpopular and even cruel it sounds, but because I don't think the Bible leads me to believe anything otherwise, I don't believe we have any guarantee that anyone--anyone--who dies without a new heart and new standing before God goes to heaven. That includes unborn and newborn infants and toddlers. Everyone is held accountable for sin. Otherwise, why would babies die to begin with? I will say again, the wages of sin is death. If they die, it must be because of some sin.

Now. Having said all that. I don't believe for certain that all hope is lost. I'm still on the fence about the issue. Different people in my church fall on all sides of the issue. But one thing I know for sure: No infant deserves heaven. If any go there, it is because of God's great mercy. But the thing is, God doesn't just sweep sin under the rug. Justice must be served. No person was ever saved apart from the blood of Christ. So if any babies go to heaven, I believe it's because Jesus died for them and, somehow, they were made to repent and trust in Him for salvation from sin. I know, I know, it's a really out-there idea that babies could will the repentance and faith necessary for salvation. But the truth is, the way the Bible presents it, there is no alternative. So it's either that all babies go to hell, or some or all of them go to heaven the same way that we do: They trust in the atoning work of Christ on their behalf.

I really don't want to come across as heartless or sadistic. My family has lost at least one baby that we know of. We hope just as much as anyone else that we will see our baby again. And I'm prepared for the idea that when I have a family of my own, my wife may lose children in the womb. But that doesn't change the Word of God. Considering the Scriptures as a whole, I believe that the above conclusion is the only one we can come to. By all means, though, feel free to disagree.

John, I know you'll disagree with the majority of what I said, just based on your views of original sin and salvation, so I don't expect you to come to the same conclusion at all.

Sam, I think you do agree with a lot of the foundational doctrines upon which I built my conclusion, so I hope you can at last consider what I said. But PM me if you want some direct answers to questions.

Now on to the next question.

But what good does our spreading of the Gospel do if God decides who deserves His mercy or not?

I knew you'd take issue with that. But you're sort of misconstruing what I said. Yes, God, as the sovereign ruler of the universe, ultimately decides who will hear the gospel and who won't, and, consequently, who He will save and who He won't; but by no means does that mean that we shouldn't spread the gospel. We've had this discussion before, so I think you know that I believe, based on Romans 10, that the only way God saves people is through the hearing of His Word. Therefore, as Romans 10 says, there must be messengers who bring that Word if people are to be saved. As I've said time and time again, God works out the ends as well as the means. To use a personal example, I believe that He determined that I would be saved, and He also determined that my pastor would follow His command to preach the gospel. Through the preaching of my pastor, God worked in my heart to respond to the gospel. My pastor was merely obeying the great commission of Christ. God used that to save me, whom He had set apart to be part of the Bride of Christ from eternity past. He is sovereign over all events, but we still make voluntary choices--whether according to what He has commanded us in His Word, or in rebellion against it.

[Dasi]

Could you expand on why you think babies who die don't go to heaven?

Ugh. I knew I should have kept my big mouth shut... But today is $10 post day, so, what the heck?

The wages of sin is death. Babies are conceived with original sin, meaning not only that they are automatically bent toward evil, but they are held accountable for the sin of our first parents, because Adam was our representative in Eden. His actions were the actions of the whole human race. One illustration I've heard is this: If you're playing football and one player makes a foul, the whole team gets penalized. The other teammates didn't personally commit any offense, but they as a group are held accountable. They may, arguably, be justly frustrated with the teammate who committed the foul, but they can't do anything to change it.

So... I know how unpopular and even cruel it sounds, but because I don't think the Bible leads me to believe anything otherwise, I don't believe we have any guarantee that anyone--anyone--who dies without a new heart and new standing before God goes to heaven. That includes unborn and newborn infants and toddlers. Everyone is held accountable for sin. Otherwise, why would babies die to begin with? I will say again, the wages of sin is death. If they die, it must be because of some sin.

Now. Having said all that. I don't believe for certain that all hope is lost. I'm still on the fence about the issue. Different people in my church fall on all sides of the issue. But one thing I know for sure: No infant deserves heaven. If any go there, it is because of God's great mercy. But the thing is, God doesn't just sweep sin under the rug. Justice must be served. No person was ever saved apart from the blood of Christ. So if any babies go to heaven, I believe it's because Jesus died for them and, somehow, they were made to repent and trust in Him for salvation from sin. I know, I know, it's a really out-there idea that babies could will the repentance and faith necessary for salvation. But the truth is, the way the Bible presents it, there is no alternative. So it's either that all babies go to hell, or some or all of them go to heaven the same way that we do: They trust in the atoning work of Christ on their behalf.

I really don't want to come across as heartless or sadistic. My family has lost at least one baby that we know of. We hope just as much as anyone else that we will see our baby again. And I'm prepared for the idea that when I have a family of my own, my wife may lose children in the womb. But that doesn't change the Word of God. Considering the Scriptures as a whole, I believe that the above conclusion is the only one we can come to. By all means, though, feel free to disagree.

John, I know you'll disagree with the majority of what I said, just based on your views of original sin and salvation, so I don't expect you to come to the same conclusion at all.

Sam, I think you do agree with a lot of the foundational doctrines upon which I built my conclusion, so I hope you can at last consider what I said. But PM me if you want some direct answers to questions.

Now on to the next question.

But what good does our spreading of the Gospel do if God decides who deserves His mercy or not?

I knew you'd take issue with that. But you're sort of misconstruing what I said. Yes, God, as the sovereign ruler of the universe, ultimately decides who will hear the gospel and who won't, and, consequently, who He will save and who He won't; but by no means does that mean that we shouldn't spread the gospel. We've had this discussion before, so I think you know that I believe, based on Romans 10, that the only way God saves people is through the hearing of His Word. Therefore, as Romans 10 says, there must be messengers who bring that Word if people are to be saved. As I've said time and time again, God works out the ends as well as the means. To use a personal example, I believe that He determined that I would be saved, and He also determined that my pastor would follow His command to preach the gospel. Through the preaching of my pastor, God worked in my heart to respond to the gospel. My pastor was merely obeying the great commission of Christ. God used that to save me, whom He had set apart to be part of the Bride of Christ from eternity past. He is sovereign over all events, but we still make voluntary choices--whether according to what He has commanded us in His Word, or in rebellion against it.

actually I don't think people are acountable of what they do till they are like 7. when they are around that age that is when they need to make the decsion for themselves, and if they turn the wrong way then they will go to hell. So I belive that babies go to heaven espically if they didn't even get a chance to live.