Can unsaved people get into Heaven?

[Pirate Oriana]

Okay, so there has been a recent topic on whether or not “Sinners will go to hell.” Now, I will admit that I didn’t read every post in the conversation, but it seems to me that most of the comments were about what hell is, what constitutes sin, and if everyone who sins is considered a sinner. However, I never saw anyone actually answer the question of whether or not sinners go to hell. Since, the original question isn’t really on topic anymore, I thought I would ask it again….backwards.

So, I actually have two questions:

1. What is heaven like?

2. Will unsaved people get in?


I’ll tell you right now that my answer to question 1. is going to be very different from every secular viewpoint of heaven, and is probably different even from some Christian viewpoints. But, before I get into my big spiel about it, I’d like to hear your guys’ thoughts on the subject.

[John Chrysostom]

This is what I think Heaven is like.

It is totally false to think that the sinners in hell are deprived of God's love. Love is a child of the knowledge of truth, and is unquestionably given commonly to all. But love's power acts in two ways: it torments sinners, while at the same time it delights those who have lived in accord with it.

I think those in hell and Heaven are both living in a state of experiencing God's love for eternity.

[Christian A.]

I actually think I agree with you this time, Ayn.

I would agree that both the saved and unsaved will experience God's love for eternity. Love is an attribute that, as Scripture seems to indicate, God is obligated to show to all. So if there are going to be sinners experiencing torment for all eternity, they will necessarily still be under God's love. Now, it is a different expression of that love, obviously, than will be expressed to the saved in heaven. It is a just love, a retributive love, a love that must give them what they deserve, because they willingly earned it for themselves.

To answer your questions, Pirate Oriana, I believe that heaven is the place where God dwells and the place where all whom He has saved will spend eternity with Him--not because of anything they've done but because of His great mercy. We will spend eternity serving/worshiping Him. And eventually, somehow, that will turn into an experience on the new heavens and new earth, where we will reign with Christ.

No, I do not think that the saved enter heaven, because what is one of the things that they are "unsaved" from? Hell. They have not been cleansed with the blood of Christ. They do not bear His righteousness. Therefore, they are not fit for heaven, not fit to dwell forever in the presence of a holy, righteous God.

[Kait]

I'm almost a universalist, so I believe almost everyone will get into "heaven", whatever that looks like.

[Over the Rainbow]

I'm almost a universalist, so I believe almost everyone will get into "heaven", whatever that looks like.

Do you believe that all conflicting religions will live in harmony in this "heaven?" What about satanists?

[Kait]

I believe that all religions who have a god or gods that are ultimately good, are in the end seeking the same God I am. They may not have the same ideas about him as I do, they may even have wrong ideas about him, but I feel they are all worshipping the same God.

A metaphor. There is a painting, right. And there are thousands of people looking at this painting. Some are standing close, some are standing far away. Some look at it while it's dark, some look at it when it's light out. Other people have bad vision so they kind of see a blur. They might even be drunk when they see the painting, so they see two or three paintings floating in their vision. Some of these people are seeing something that might be completely different from what another person sees, but they are both looking at the same painting.

That is pretty much how I see most religions.

As far as satanists go, I don't believe Satan exists. So I think 'satanists' are in essence, just worshipping the forces of human nature that are fallen and sinful. I don't think that part of humanity is in accordance with what God wants for us, so I would not say they are worshipping 'God' (this goes, I think, for possibly all religions that worship a form of a devil or satan). I can't say what will happen to them, really.

[Pirate Oriana]

Okay, since I have a bad habit of letting the real world get in the way of my internet life, and I don't know for sure when I'll be back on again, I'll go ahead and give my viewpoint of heaven.

For a long time my basic idea of heaven was super happy place where nothing bad ever happens. Intrance into heaven was like a reward for accepting Christ But then I started to ask myself if my glorified Disney Land picture was really accurate. The answer I came up with was, NO.

So, why will heaven be so awesome? (because it WILL be awesome.)

In order to get to the end I had to start at the beginning. When anyone accepts Christ, they are making a comittment to be obedient servants and to become conformed to the image of Christ. As Christians this should be our all consuming desire above everything else. So, heaven, I believe, is the completetion of all we strive and hope for.
In heaven we will be completely refined. we will be able to look into the face of God without any aspect of our natures being in conflict with His. (I don't mean that we will be on God's level; but we will be perfected humans with nothing in us that God does not approve.)

So, basically, in our lives on earth we choose what our heart's desire is. For Christians, we want God to pervade every aspects of our lives; by rejecting God, unbelievers show that their strongest desire is to avoid His influence in theirs. So, in the end, I think God give all men the fullfillment of what they strive for here on earth; and for many that will not be heaven. (at least not by my definition.)

[Josef1004]

Okay, so there has been a recent topic on whether or not “Sinners will go to hell.” Now, I will admit that I didn’t read every post in the conversation, but it seems to me that most of the comments were about what hell is, what constitutes sin, and if everyone who sins is considered a sinner. However, I never saw anyone actually answer the question of whether or not sinners go to hell. Since, the original question isn’t really on topic anymore, I thought I would ask it again….backwards.

So, I actually have two questions:

1. What is heaven like?

2. Will unsaved people get in?


I’ll tell you right now that my answer to question 1. is going to be very different from every secular viewpoint of heaven, and is probably different even from some Christian viewpoints. But, before I get into my big spiel about it, I’d like to hear your guys’ thoughts on the subject.

from How many of our guys would you like to hear thoughts?

haha; but seriously, what do you mean by "unsaved"?

[Pirate Oriana]

Well, I would consider a "saved," person to be someone who believes: 1. that the God of the Bible is the one true God. 2. That Jesus Christ was God in the flesh. 3. That Jesus Christ, being perfect and without sin, took the punishment for their sin through His death on the cross, and after three days he rose from the dead. 4. That this death and ressurection of Jesus Christ provides them with a way to be reconciled to God.
If a person believes and puts their faith in all of that, I believe he is saved. So, I would say that someone who does not accept these things as truth, is not saved.

[church]

To answer 2 first

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 14:6 ESV

1 is trickier. There isn't a huge amount in the Bible about what Heaven is like. We do know a few things though. It's a place with joy and without sorrow.

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.

Rev 21:3-4 ESV

[ric]

A metaphor. There is a painting, right. And there are thousands of people looking at this painting. Some are standing close, some are standing far away. Some look at it while it's dark, some look at it when it's light out. Other people have bad vision so they kind of see a blur. They might even be drunk when they see the painting, so they see two or three paintings floating in their vision. Some of these people are seeing something that might be completely different from what another person sees, but they are both looking at the same painting.

That is a very incomplete metaphor. So all these people are standing around looking at the painting, and, yes, it's the same painting, no matter what their differing opinions of it are; but, then what? Allow me to complete the metaphor. Let's say the painting contains instructions for how to do something, say, build a birdhouse (arbitrary, I know). The people standing close are likely to build a birdhouse more true to the instructions than those standing really far away, or those that are drunk. Many of them will come up with something that can't even be called a birdhouse.

This metaphor could be greatly extended, but for the moment it serves our purposes.

It seems a contradiction to say that an unsaved person would get into heaven. In my view, only a saved person can get into heaven. The problem comes in defining the term 'saved.'

[Kait]

Well I think that is where we would differ. I don't really believe in "saved" and "unsaved" in the way most Christians do.

[church]

It seems a contradiction to say that an unsaved person would get into heaven. In my view, only a saved person can get into heaven. The problem comes in defining the term 'saved.'

Ric has a good point. Saved by definition is getting to heaven. I'm assuming by saved you mean taking Jesus as lord and savior, and you're asking if someone does not do that can they get to heaven?

[Pirate Oriana]

It seems a contradiction to say that an unsaved person would get into heaven. In my view, only a saved person can get into heaven. The problem comes in defining the term 'saved.'

Ric has a good point. Saved by definition is getting to heaven. I'm assuming by saved you mean taking Jesus as lord and savior, and you're asking if someone does not do that can they get to heaven?

Yes, that is basically what I mean.

The main reason I used the word "unsaved," was to avoid using the word "sinner," because it makes it sound like only non-Christians sin, and once you become a Christian you don't do anything sinful. I guess, a better term to use would be "unrepentant sinners." So, can a person who never repents of their sin, and never accepts the gift of salvation through Jesus Christ, get into heaven?

[Kait]

A metaphor. There is a painting, right. And there are thousands of people looking at this painting. Some are standing close, some are standing far away. Some look at it while it's dark, some look at it when it's light out. Other people have bad vision so they kind of see a blur. They might even be drunk when they see the painting, so they see two or three paintings floating in their vision. Some of these people are seeing something that might be completely different from what another person sees, but they are both looking at the same painting.

That is a very incomplete metaphor. So all these people are standing around looking at the painting, and, yes, it's the same painting, no matter what their differing opinions of it are; but, then what? Allow me to complete the metaphor. Let's say the painting contains instructions for how to do something, say, build a birdhouse (arbitrary, I know). The people standing close are likely to build a birdhouse more true to the instructions than those standing really far away, or those that are drunk. Many of them will come up with something that can't even be called a birdhouse.

My point still stands, though. In that I think, in essence, all religions SEEK God. Some just might come closer to the mark than others. But I also believe God is just, loving and merciful enough to take into accounts the heart and actions of every person. Beyond just someone saying "I accept Jesus as my Lord and Saviour".

According to Christian logic if Hitler accepted Jesus on his death bed, even after a long, long life of EVIL and murdering millions of people in the most horrific ways possible...he gets to spend eternity with God. Yet, if someone (like Ghandi for example) spends their life promoting love and peace and does more good for humanity in their life than most people could do in 10 lifetimes, but he doesn't accept Jesus, then he is going to hell.

That just doesn't work for me. It's wrong. And if that is the only way God works and my idea of him is completely false, then so be it. Because I have no desire to worship a God with such a twisted sense of 'justice'.

[church]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_ympKXmC6c

Honestly, that does a good job explaining it.

Because all of us have fallen short of God's standards, we can not make it on our own. If it had to be earned then no one would make it into heaven. Only through grace can we get into heaven. It's a free gift, so anyone can accept it, but they have to choose to accept it. They can choose to reject it.

[Kait]

I just don't agree.

Also, the analogy he uses is pretty weak and faulty.

[Caswin]

It's a free gift, so anyone can accept it, but they have to choose to accept it. They can choose to reject it.

Even if it's a "free gift", many do not actually hear about it, and of those that do, many hear the words but don't believe they're true. To them, it's not rejecting God, it's rejecting a false belief. I can't think of anyone I've heard of who heard the Gospel, believed that Jesus did in fact die for their sins, then rejected it anyway.

[Kait]

^ That is a super good point that I did not articulate.

[church]

Even if it's a "free gift", many do not actually hear about it, and of those that do, many hear the words but don't believe they're true. To them, it's not rejecting God, it's rejecting a false belief. I can't think of anyone I've heard of who heard the Gospel, believed that Jesus did in fact die for their sins, then rejected it anyway.

Why it's rejected isn't necessarily important. It's that it is rejected.

Just so I'm clear before moving on, you believe that salvation is earned through good deeds?