"God is not a man..."

[snubs]

Yeah, but she said that she doesn't believe that Jesus is the fulfilled prophecy, because she said she doesn't believe it happened yet.

[Kait]

I don't believe the Messiah will be God incarnate. There is nothing to indicate that in the Old Testament, that idea is one adopted from Roman and Greek traditions and has no real basis in scripture. The idea of a Messiah in scripture is PURELY a kingly one. God's anointed, who will reign in a time of peace. That's it.

[Christian A.]

As Kait said God exists outside of time, He is both God and man through out time. The moment of His incarnation is a specific time but His nature is timeless.

I do not believe the Son of God had a human nature before He came to earth. Yes, He exists outside of time, but when He entered time, as a man, He added a human nature to His divine nature, and now He will forever be human. He stands at the right hand of the Father with a glorified human body, which He did not have prior to His incarnation.

[snubs]

I don't believe the Messiah will be God incarnate. There is nothing to indicate that in the Old Testament, that idea is one adopted from Roman and Greek traditions and has no real basis in scripture. The idea of a Messiah in scripture is PURELY a kingly one. God's anointed, who will reign in a time of peace. That's it.

Ooohh. Okay, thanks for making that clear for me.

[Dr. Watson]

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

I think this sums it up. Anyone who denies Jesus Christ was fully human and fully divine, is deceived and is a deceiver, does not have God, and has wicked ways. Anyone in this category needs to repent of sin and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, resting in His substitutionary atoning work on the cross.

[Josef1004]

It's easy to understand that the idea is that God is not in the category that we are, as created beings. God is higher; He is the creator. To trifle over wording and say: "Isn't Jesus a man?" is just silly and akin to a smartypants little boy who, when asked by his mother whether he has brushed his teeth, says: "Yes, ma'am!" because she didn't specify she meant today after supper and not yesterday morning. What should the mother do about that? What do you suppose God will do about people who smart-talk back at his word?

[John Chrysostom]

I think you guys are being really rude to Kait, this is a terrible witness. In the last two posts you have called Kait a deceiver, one with wicked ways, and made vague threats toward Kait that God will do something bad to her. Stop it, seriously.

[jasonjannajerryjohn]

I don't believe the Messiah will be God incarnate. There is nothing to indicate that in the Old Testament, that idea is one adopted from Roman and Greek traditions and has no real basis in scripture. The idea of a Messiah in scripture is PURELY a kingly one. God's anointed, who will reign in a time of peace. That's it.

Well there are several Bible stories derived from other myths. Jesus being God incarnate being one of them. Zeus and other gods would often mate with humans to create a demigod, a half god, half human. Dionysus in particular was considered a full god but he was born of a mortal woman. Now I know that's not exactly the Bible story, but you can see how the story would come from the other story. If you know the way stories and mythology spread, especially in times when you would mostly spread religious stories by telling them to people.

I think you guys are being really rude to Kait, this is a terrible witness. In the last two posts you have called Kait a deceiver, one with wicked ways, and made vague threats toward Kait that God will do something bad to her. Stop it, seriously.

I agree. Unfortunately not all religious people in the world will just stop at words. Makes me wonder what would happen if the US was actually a theocracy ruled by the Bible as some would like.

[Kait]

It's easy to understand that the idea is that God is not in the category that we are, as created beings. God is higher; He is the creator. To trifle over wording and say: "Isn't Jesus a man?" is just silly and akin to a smartypants little boy who, when asked by his mother whether he has brushed his teeth, says: "Yes, ma'am!" because she didn't specify she meant today after supper and not yesterday morning. What should the mother do about that? What do you suppose God will do about people who smart-talk back at his word?

Wow. So I'm not supposed to ever ask a question regarding possible Biblical contradictions? I'm supposed to just accept everything I am taught by man regarding theology? And if I don't God is going to give me the equivalent of a parent's "spanking?" I don't think I'm the one who is juvenile in this scenario. But thanks for that.

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

I think this sums it up. Anyone who denies Jesus Christ was fully human and fully divine, is deceived and is a deceiver, does not have God, and has wicked ways. Anyone in this category needs to repent of sin and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, resting in His substitutionary atoning work on the cross.

I've never been called the anti-christ before or been told I have wicked ways. I guess I can add that to my bucket list that didn't exist.

This is basically an easy cop-out way of saying "I have no good rebuttal for anything you have presented, nor do I have any desire to actually answer your question and so I am going to call you a deceiver with wicked ways." It should also be noted this is one of the primary reasons I am no longer a Christian. Because every single time I tried to ask challenging questions regarding what everyone blindly believes, I was told that asking those questions was sinful. And that I just need to believe that Jesus is the Messiah and stop asking ridiculous questions that no one has an answer for.

And I'm sorry, but I'm not about to follow a God who doesn't allow questions. I'm not about to worship someone named Jesus unless I am 100 percent certain that God *wants* me to worship that person as Christianity tells me I am supposed to. And I don't see that evidence in any Old Testament scripture.

Thanks for being a great light of the supposed love of Jesus Christ, both of you.

I think you guys are being really rude to Kait, this is a terrible witness. In the last two posts you have called Kait a deceiver, one with wicked ways, and made vague threats toward Kait that God will do something bad to her. Stop it, seriously.

Thanks, Ayn. I mean it.

[John Chrysostom]

Anytime people say questions can't be asked is a dark time indeed. People should ask questions and we should have an actual conversation not throw Bible verses at them then condemn them when they don't accept.

Josef do you realize that you sound like the worst of the TV evangelist who say that God is punishing such and such place with a hurricane? For Kait the wording of these arguments isn't silly and you need to show the proper consideration for her questions.

Dr. Watson that doesn't sum it up, not everything is as straight forward as you make it out to be. For example I in no way think the verse you cited calls for us to rest in His substitutionary atoning work on the cross, I would dispute that as the primary focus of the Incarnation. We need to have an actual dialog rather than make blanket condemnations and ultimatums.

Kait, you're welcome and Happy Birthday.

[jasonjannajerryjohn]

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

I think this sums it up. Anyone who denies Jesus Christ was fully human and fully divine, is deceived and is a deceiver, does not have God, and has wicked ways. Anyone in this category needs to repent of sin and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, resting in His substitutionary atoning work on the cross.

Watson disapproves of you using his name.

[Dr. Watson]

People, this isn't about squashing questions. I don't know where you get that from.

Kait, you said,

I don't believe the Messiah will be God incarnate. There is nothing to indicate that in the Old Testament, that idea is one adopted from Roman and Greek traditions and has no real basis in scripture.

This is not a question; it is a statement about what you believe. I firmly believe in asking questions about the Scriptures and seeking out what they mean. However, at the end of the day, if the statement above about Christ is your belief, then apostolic Biblical truth urges you to repent and believe on Jesus Christ!


Ayn, this is not a "bad witness" as you put it--it is being a witness to the deity and humanity of Jesus Christ, His perfect life, His death, atonement and resurrection. This is the gospel, and I am appalled that no one here is addressing the heretical teaching that Jesus is not God incarnate. Shame! Jesus is everything to me, He is my Lord and my God. He has saved me from hell and the wrath of God. How can I not speak to defend the honor of Christ and the orthodox teachings of the prophets, apostles, and the church? In fact, I was pretty mild in comparison with the likes of Apostle Peter and Jude when they lambast false teachers! Are they a "bad witness" as well?

[John Chrysostom]

I am not ignoring the heresy that Jesus is not God incarnate, nowhere on this thread or this forum have I said otherwise. However the answer is not always to lambaste the other side. Look at St. Paul in Acts 17 when he is talking to the Athenians, he praises what they have gotten right before talking to them, not throwing verses at them and calling them wicked deceivers. He calls for repentance but does not call for it to save us from the wrath of an angry God but so that we may believe in what is true and good. I think the language you use in talking about wrath is a disservice to your arguments. And if you think you are the equal of the Apostles then by all means go ahead and lambaste false teachers like they did, otherwise why not practice humility and temperance?

And why not have a dialog instead of going straight to condemnation?

[Dr. Watson]

Ayn, we have fundamentally different views of evangelism. I'm perfectly willing to dialogue--but that dialogue needs to be brought back to the authority of the Scriptures ("throwing verses" as you put it. ) Paul says that faith comes through hearing and hearing through the Word of Christ. Salvation of man is irrevocably tied to the throwing of verses! Embrace the Scripture as a tool for evangelism--both passages that speak of God's love and those that speak of God's wrath. Without a realization of the coming judgement against sin, there is no need for repentance from sin! Perhaps you, and others, read my post imagining that I was screaming in a harsh vindictive tone from behind my computer screen. That is an untrue assumption. Without jumping to conclusion about my motives, attitude or perceived tone (remember, dialogue goes both ways! ), read my above posts as coming from a matter-of-fact tone of voice. That's all I was doing--stating what the Scripture said about this false teaching.

I again repeat that those who do not believe Christ do not have God. Christ came in the flesh to show us who God is, and without Him, we cannot have God. Jesus said, "No one comes to the Father, but through Me!" All who deny Christ, repent of sin and your own attempts at morality--God will judge this. However, He has offered redemption through His Son. Believe on His finished work and be saved.

[John Chrysostom]

Without a realization of the coming judgement against sin, there is no need for repentance from sin!

So the only reason for repentance from sin is to escape judgement?

You say every conversation needs to be brought back to the authority of Scripture but your participation in this thread began and ended with verse throwing and calling Kait evil and wicked.

Forgive me for making assumptions about your tone.

[darcie]

In my very humblest of opinions, calling people out as the antichrist is the very reason people turn away from Christianity. No one likes to be talked to in that way. And while it may be done out of love or deep caring for the soul of another, it doesn't enrich their soul in the necessary manner. Preaching hellfire and damnation unless we repent is one way, but I catch more flies with honey.

That's really all I need to say. Oh, and...

And the trinity is an unsolvable paradox, you can't make sense of it. You either accept it by faith, or you don't.

Carry on!

[TigerintheShadows]

So I'm not supposed to ever ask a question regarding possible Biblical contradictions? I'm supposed to just accept everything I am taught by man regarding theology?

Yes, you absolutely should ask questions. I ask questions all the time. I personally feel that you absolutely must question your faith and seek answers to those questions and find someone who can give them to you, especially since in the real world, people will attack your faith—whatever it may be—all the time, and you need to be ready. I don't know where this idea comes from that to have doubts about God means that you're an ungrateful, immature little brat, but seriously...it's time for it to die. God is not afraid of or angry at our questions. He is angry at blasphemy and heresy, but He is not angry with people who genuinely want answers.

I think this sums it up. Anyone who denies Jesus Christ was fully human and fully divine, is deceived and is a deceiver, does not have God, and has wicked ways. Anyone in this category needs to repent of sin and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, resting in His substitutionary atoning work on the cross.

The way Kait came across to me was not as someone who was denying that Jesus was fully God and fully divine. She came across as someone who wanted to understand how we reconcile "God is not a man" versus "fully God and fully man".

This is basically an easy cop-out way of saying "I have no good rebuttal for anything you have presented, nor do I have any desire to actually answer your question and so I am going to call you a deceiver with wicked ways."

^^This.

It should also be noted this is one of the primary reasons I am no longer a Christian. Because every single time I tried to ask challenging questions regarding what everyone blindly believes, I was told that asking those questions was sinful. And that I just need to believe that Jesus is the Messiah and stop asking ridiculous questions that no one has an answer for.

I say this with the utmost sincerity, Kait—I am truly sorry that you grew up in that environment. There is no excuse for that, in my opinion. People become stronger Christians because they get their earnest questions answered, not because they blindly followed what other people have told them. This is why it's so important for Christians to study the Bible.

And I'm sorry, but I'm not about to follow a God who doesn't allow questions. I'm not about to worship someone named Jesus unless I am 100 percent certain that God *wants* me to worship that person as Christianity tells me I am supposed to.

The way I was raised, I was always told that this was not the God who made me. That is not Yahweh. God does not smite all doubters; He punishes those who directly blaspheme His name or otherwise sin against Him, but He knows we doubt and He is willing to provide answers for those who ask. I also think there is a difference between truly doubting God and seeking belief.

And I don't see that evidence in any Old Testament scripture.

On this, we will have to agree to disagree. I think that the very fact that entire passages of Old Testament scripture—breathed out by God, according to 2nd Timothy—are devoted to prophesying about Jesus (Isaiah 53 being a prime example) is proof enough.

I think you guys are being really rude to Kait, this is a terrible witness. In the last two posts you have called Kait a deceiver, one with wicked ways, and made vague threats toward Kait that God will do something bad to her. Stop it, seriously.

^^This.

[jasonjannajerryjohn]

Without a realization of the coming judgement against sin, there is no need for repentance from sin!

So the only reason for repentance from sin is to escape judgement?

Yes, of course. If everything Watson and others like him would have us believe to be true were actually true than yes, definitely. I and many others, especially those darned intellectual atheists, would be for sure asking for forgiveness and making sure to do whatever God wants to stay out of hell. We can sit here and argue about how evil that is, torturing someone forever for all of eternity (you think Guantanamo is bad), but if it were really true, we'd all want to make sure to avoid such a fate. That doesn't mean we'd go around worshiping such a God, because such a God would be unworthy of worship, however we would do as much as we can to spread it and make sure people don't go to hell. Atheists actually tend to be some of the most altruistic people.

[Sherlock]

Without a realization of the coming judgement against sin, there is no need for repentance from sin!

So the only reason for repentance from sin is to escape judgement?

From the background I come from, we call this kind of repentance "imperfect contrition". It basically means that we are sorry we sinned but only because we are afraid of punishment and judgment. And while this is a valid reason to be sorry for our sins, it isn't the only reason, nor is it the best.

The other type of contrition - the type we strive for as Christians - is called "perfect contrition". In the Eighth Station of St. Alphonsus Ligouri's Stations of the Cross (a series of prayers said during Lent), the following is said:

My Jesus, laden with sorrows, I weep for the offenses that I have committed against Thee, because of the pains which they have deserved, and still more because of the displeasure which they have caused Thee, Who hast loved me so much. It is Thy love, more than the fear of Hell, which causes me to weep for my sins. My Jesus, I love Thee more than myself; I repent of having offended Thee. Never permit me to offend Thee again. Grant that I may love Thee always, and then do with me what Thou wilt.

[Kait]

People, this isn't about squashing questions. I don't know where you get that from.

Kait, you said,

I don't believe the Messiah will be God incarnate. There is nothing to indicate that in the Old Testament, that idea is one adopted from Roman and Greek traditions and has no real basis in scripture.

This is not a question; it is a statement about what you believe. I firmly believe in asking questions about the Scriptures and seeking out what they mean. However, at the end of the day, if the statement above about Christ is your belief, then apostolic Biblical truth urges you to repent and believe on Jesus Christ!


Ayn, this is not a "bad witness" as you put it--it is being a witness to the deity and humanity of Jesus Christ, His perfect life, His death, atonement and resurrection. This is the gospel, and I am appalled that no one here is addressing the heretical teaching that Jesus is not God incarnate. Shame! Jesus is everything to me, He is my Lord and my God. He has saved me from hell and the wrath of God. How can I not speak to defend the honor of Christ and the orthodox teachings of the prophets, apostles, and the church? In fact, I was pretty mild in comparison with the likes of Apostle Peter and Jude when they lambast false teachers! Are they a "bad witness" as well?

My apologies, I was mostly combining my response to both you and Josef1004.

But my point still stands. I no longer believe Jesus is Messiah not because I just suddenly decided to be rebellious and throw away my religion. I no longer believe it because I have done intensive study on the subject, asked tough questions like the one that started this thread, and gone through all the Old Testament passages that are supposedly about Jesus. And I have come to the educated conclusion that he isn't the Messiah. I believe in a Messiah. I just don't think it's Jesus.

And you can defend his honour all you want. And you can be passionate about what you believe. But there is ABSOLUTELY no need to call me wicked. Or the anti-christ. Or tell me that I am a false teacher here to deceive everyone.

I'm not going around trying to convert everyone to my way of thinking, I am asking honest questions and wanting to seek the truth. I'm not telling you guys you are wrong. So I'm not sure where this ridiculous "false teacher" thing comes from. I have my beliefs that I've come to, but that doesn't mean I am not open to being proven wrong. And you telling me how evil I am isn't going to do that.

And like I said before. This is the reason I'm no longer a Christian. Instead of engaging people in discussion and being respectful of their beliefs as you share your own, people such as yourself just completely reject and lambaste people such as myself, end of story.

And I don't repent of my sin because I fear Hellfire and damnation. I repent of my sin because of my desire to align myself with God's character. I don't need fear to repent of my sin, because I do it out of love. Also, if one has any idea about Jewish culture in the first century, they'd realize that Jesus' statement "No one comes to the Father except through me." doesn't mean what most Christians think it does.

In essence, I don't particularly appreciate just being dismissed in such a vitriolic way. Get back to me when you're ready to engage in a more loving and respectful way.