Prayers for the Departed

At the Second Church of Odyssey you'll find different ways of expressing your beliefs, finding prayer support or being encouraged through regular devotionals.
Post Reply
User avatar
John Chrysostom
No way I broke the window
Posts: 3593
Joined: September 2007

Prayers for the Departed

Post by John Chrysostom »

Sherlock and I were discussing Prayers for the Departed (or the Dead) and we wanted to get the Protestant view the state of the souls of the departed. To give some background here is the Eastern Orthodox prayer for the Departed, usually said in church a week, forty days, and then every year after the death of someone, this is said as part of a longer service.
O God of spirits and of all flesh, Who hast trampled down death and overthrown the Devil, and given life to Thy world, do Thou, the same Lord, give rest to the souls of Thy departed servants in a place of brightness, a place of refreshment, a place of repose, where all sickness, sighing, and sorrow have fled away. Pardon every transgression which they have committed, whether by word or deed or thought. For Thou art a good God and lovest mankind; because there is no man who lives yet does not sin, for Thou only art without sin, Thy righteousness is to all eternity, and Thy word is truth.

For Thou are the Resurrection, the Life, and the Repose of Thy servants who have fallen asleep, O Christ our God, and unto Thee we ascribe glory, together with Thy Father, who is from everlasting, and Thine all-holy, good, and life-creating Spirit, now and ever unto ages of ages. Amen.
The belief of the Eastern Orthodox Church is that the Church consists not just of the living faithful but the departed as well and since no man departs this life free of sin, perfect, and holy he still need the mercy of God and our prayers. This is an article that expands on my thoughts: http://www.pravmir.com/article_596.html

Any way, Sherlock will explain the Roman Catholic view of prayers for the departed and we are really interested to hear how Protestants view prayers for the departed and how they remember the departed in general.
User avatar
Sherlock
Solicitor Non Grata
Posts: 3401
Joined: May 2005
Location: Bohemia

Post by Sherlock »

We also believe that the Church consists of several parts. Like John Chrystostom said above, we believe that, with very few exceptions, no one departs this earth free of sin, so we call those faithful who are now deceased the "Church penitent" or those who have sins that prevent them from entering into Heaven. Those of us who are alive here on earth are called the Church militant or ecclesia militans, and our job is to pray for the Church penitent. The third group is Church triumphant, those souls who are now in Heaven (e.g. saints and those who have been cleansed of sin and entered Heaven). Since the holy souls in Heaven have the honor and glory of being in the presence of God, we ask the Church triumphant to intercede to God on behalf of the Church penitent.

Catholic teaching holds that the concept of Purgatory may be one explanation for how the souls who die in a state of imperfection are cleansed of sin, but to be honest we really don't know what happens. All we know is that sin cannot exist in Heaven and that, with the exception of those Saints who lived very holy lives, most of us will die in some state of imperfection. Therefore, Catholics believe that we (Church militant) have a duty to pray for those in our families who have passed, but also for those who may have no family or loved ones one to pray for them. We do not know whether the poor souls who have passed are able to pray for themselves, so they may rely solely upon our prayers.

Catholics are encouraged to say the Eternal Rest Prayer for the deceased:
Eternal rest, grant unto them O Lord,
and let perpetual light shine upon them.
May their souls and the souls of all the faithful departed,
through the mercy of God, rest in peace.
Amen.
Finally, Feast Days like All Souls Day exist to pray for the faithful departed, while All Saints Day exists to recognize those souls who are in Heaven.
(More detail can be found here and here).
User avatar
Christian A.
Animatronic
Posts: 1063
Joined: April 2011
Location: Copley, Ohio
Contact:

Post by Christian A. »

Well, I'm guessing that the intent is not to spark a debate here, so I'll just give the Reformed Baptist view of things and try not to be too condemning of the Catholic view. ;)

Our church, too, makes the distinction between the Church militant and the Church triumphant. There is no Church penitent in Protestant understanding. As soon as a believer dies (and all believers die still as sinners; no one reaches perfection until they are glorified in heaven), his soul is separated from his body and he goes to the judgment throne of God, where God says to Him something to the effect of, "Well done, my good and faithful servant. Enter into the joy of your Master." All of his sins, past, present, and future, have been covered by the blood of Christ, and he bears the perfect imputed righteousness of Christ, which is the only thing that can get anyone into heaven. There is no place for an intermediate place of purging, because Christ already took the punishment for his sins.

As a result of these beliefs, there isn't really a reason for us to pray for believers who have gone on to be with God. Now, I suppose the case can be made that you could maybe pray for someone in the past tense: something to the effect of, "Lord, I pray that while that person was here on earth that you would truly have saved him and sealed him for heaven, and that he wasn't a false convert and burning in hell right now." I might even pray something like that myself. But, I really don't see any place for praying for saints who have departed whom we are confident are in heaven.

Now, whether the Church triumphant is able to see our plight here on the earth and may have reason to petition God on our behalf is another story...
User avatar
SoccerLOTR
If posts were pigs...
Posts: 2055
Joined: May 2005
Location: The Woodland Realm

Post by SoccerLOTR »

John Chrysostom & Sherlock--don't take this as a criticism, just a curiosity question--where do you get this philosophy in the Bible?
Image
Image
It was good knowing you StrongNChrist; you taught me a lot. I'll meet you someday for real in God's presence.

Which Jesus do you follow? If Ephesians says to imitate Christ, why do you look so much like the world?~Todd Agnew

Do not be anxious about anything...~Phil 4:6-7

If more of us valued food, cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.~Tolkien

Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost.~J Adams

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.~B Franklin

I died and became a Roman Soldier--It was rather distracting.~Rory (Dr.Who)
User avatar
John Chrysostom
No way I broke the window
Posts: 3593
Joined: September 2007

Post by John Chrysostom »

We find it in 2 Maccabees 12:43-46
And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain. And making a gathering, he twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, (For if he had not hoped that the that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) And because he considered that the who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.
And even if you don't agree that the book of Maccabees is canon it shows the Jewish practice was there before. And given the context that the Jewish people did pray for the dead look at this letter from St. Paul to St. Timothy in that context.
1 Timothy 2:1 wrote:I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions and giving of thanks be made for all men.
This is a quote from Elder Cleopa, a respected Romanian monk.
Consequently, if our prayers are able to benefit the living for what reason are they powerless to benefit the dead, granted that they also live by their souls? God is everywhere present and hears both the prayers for the living and for the dead.
User avatar
The Top Crusader
Hammer Bro
Hammer Bro
Posts: 22629
Joined: April 2005
Location: A drawbridge over a lava pit with an axe conveniently off to the side

Post by The Top Crusader »

The I Timothy reference is the only one found in standard scripture and I don't think it paints a clear picture that it means "and dead guys, too."

Not to mention... what is the point of Christ's sacrifice if beyond a person accepting it they also have the neccessity of prayer for their eternal soul after their death? This takes salvation out of the hands of both Christ and the convert.
User avatar
John Chrysostom
No way I broke the window
Posts: 3593
Joined: September 2007

Post by John Chrysostom »

I would not say that prayers for the dead are necessary, I would say they are beneficial to the dead. If we pray for the living and those prayers are beneficial and effectual then are we really saying those prayers also take away from Christ's power?
User avatar
Christian A.
Animatronic
Posts: 1063
Joined: April 2011
Location: Copley, Ohio
Contact:

Post by Christian A. »

But what sorts of prayers do deceased saints need after their souls have been glorified and they will live sinlessly in the presence of Christ forever?
User avatar
John Chrysostom
No way I broke the window
Posts: 3593
Joined: September 2007

Post by John Chrysostom »

As Sherlock and I have said those Saint who make up the Church triumphant don't need our prayers and in fact we ask them to pray for us. But as Sherlock and I said there is the Church penitent whose fate at the judgement seat is unknown and we still pray for them with faith that our prayers will be beneficial.
User avatar
SoccerLOTR
If posts were pigs...
Posts: 2055
Joined: May 2005
Location: The Woodland Realm

Post by SoccerLOTR »

hmm...ok, thanks for answering my question! I agree that 1 Timothy doesn't really hit the mark in my opinion, but someday I'll read Maccabees and get a picture of the full context.
Image
Image
It was good knowing you StrongNChrist; you taught me a lot. I'll meet you someday for real in God's presence.

Which Jesus do you follow? If Ephesians says to imitate Christ, why do you look so much like the world?~Todd Agnew

Do not be anxious about anything...~Phil 4:6-7

If more of us valued food, cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.~Tolkien

Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost.~J Adams

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.~B Franklin

I died and became a Roman Soldier--It was rather distracting.~Rory (Dr.Who)
Post Reply