Please Clarify First

[Catspaw]

A lot of life is how you define things. Bookworm and I just defined things differently. It's all good. Either way, the general point that Catholicism has been an important part of Christianity for many years is still true.

[jasonjannajerryjohn]

Ironic that Catholics are getting the "not Christian" treatment quite a bit nowadays when they were the first Christians.

I think that honour would actually belong to the Jewish people, wouldn't it? Most of the early believers were Jewish, dating back to Jesus' time on earth.

Well the word Jew typically refers to two different things, the religion and the ethnicity.

If you were to use the word Jew to mean a follower of the religion, than Judaism is not Christianity, unless you want to argue that it is, which I most definitely will not get into.

If you were to use the word Jew to mean the ethnicity, than yes, the first Christians would have been ethnic Jews.

However, Catholic is not an ethnicity. It is entirely possible to be an ethnic Jew and be a Catholic at the same time. Thus your claim there does not contradict my claim at all and I agree with your claim. And my point still stands. The first Christians were Catholic. The word "catholic" after all simply means universal and united. The church would have than been called Catholic to refer to the united state of all believers under God and their belief in Jesus. Splits, like we see so very often in today's Protestant churches, just didn't happen. Hence the word "catholic" to mean united church.

The first Christian belief systems that started with the first Christians and evolved into the wider church that dominated the Roman Empire was Catholic. The split into Orthodox came with the split of the Roman Empire into the Western and Eastern Roman Empire, about 285 AD. And the Protestant Reformation did not come until about twelve hundred+ years later in the 1500s. Which, of course, became all of the large number of denominations we have today, like Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, ect, that almost everyone on this site at least came from and probably are still a part of. It's hard to picture what it was like ninteen hundred+ years ago since a lot can and did happen in that amount of time. We like to look back on history through our own cultural lens, but it's very hard to look at the people for the time that they were in. Looking back through our own lens is what makes us say Catholics aren't Christians, but really they're the oldest variety of Christian. Really, it's the Catholics who have every right to say that Protestants aren't really Christian, because the Protestant beliefs that we all know so very well didn't come about until much later.

[bookworm]

If you were to use the word Jew to mean the ethnicity, than yes, the first Christians would have been ethnic Jews.

Yes, that's what I was trying to say.

[Dr. Watson]

I would point out there is a difference between "catholic" and "Catholic". All true believers in Jesus Christ, even those dating back to the Old Testament, are part of the united, universal catholic church. Not all those are or were part of the Roman Catholic church. Nor are all members of the Catholic church part of the catholic church.

[jasonjannajerryjohn]

Those people aren't really Christian! -said with a smile-

[John Chrysostom]

I think it's important to note that every church, Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox have people in them who are not Christians but to single out one group is wrong.

Your argument that back in the early church not everyone was Roman Catholic is partially correct since the distinction Roman Catholic was not made until the Great Schism in 1054 but the early Christians did believe in a visible and united Church and even the Reformers believed that. The idea of an invisible church is a recent concept.

[Blitz]

The Catholic Church actually did not appear for the first hundred or so years of Christianity or more I think. Catholicism is one of the oldest Christian religions not that I agree with them in what they believe. Some things people say about them are true some are questionable. And you can't really say that a church is good because it is lasted for so long or goes back the longest.

[Dr. Watson]

I think it's important to note that every church, Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox have people in them who are not Christians but to single out one group is wrong.

I wasn't singling out Catholics--I heartily agree that there are many unregenerate people in Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox churches. I was only responding to JJJJ's assertion that the first Christians were Catholics. If he meant capital "C" Catholics (as in Roman Catholic), then his assertion is wrong; if he meant lower case catholic, then he is absolutely correct.

Your argument that back in the early church not everyone was Roman Catholic is partially correct since the distinction Roman Catholic was not made until the Great Schism in 1054 but the early Christians did believe in a visible and united Church and even the Reformers believed that. The idea of an invisible church is a recent concept.

What is your source for saying that the invisible church is a recent concept? I would disagree with that. The word "catholic" implies an invisible church, a united universal church that spans all the ages from the Old Testament saint to those who have yet to come to Christ--and this term was used in the Apostle's Creed. The Reformers understood the distinction between visible and invisible, as well as Augustine. Really, the concept is rooted in the Apostle Paul when he says, "For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel", i.e. not all of the visible covenant people of God were of His invisible spiritual covenant people.

[John Chrysostom]

I would disagree that Catholic in the Nicene Creed, not the Apostles Creed, means universal I've always read it to mean fullness of teachings. Because the idea of a universal Church that was not a united Church was just not around at the time of the Creed. St. Augustine who you attribute a belief to an invisible church was a bishop of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. The origin of the phrase Catholic Church is found in a letter of a disciple of St. John the Evangelist, Ignatius of Antioch (ca. AD 100). He writes (possibly while the apostle is still living and ministering in Ephesus): “Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church” (Epistle to the Smyrnæans, 8). The idea of the Catholic Church is linked directly to the visible Church in the form of the bishop.

Now St. Augustine did say “We know where the Church is but not where it isn’t.” But you seem to be focusing on the where it isn't and ignoring that St. Augustine is saying we do know where it is. As far as what the Apostle Paul said I agree the gentiles where grafted into a visible form the Church, they weren't grafted into an invisible concept.

[Arkán Dreamwalker]

The Catholic Church actually did not appear for the first hundred or so years of Christianity or more I think.

Jesus founded the Church circa 33 AD, the Catholic Church. It was about 100 years later, I think, people started deciding this or that was wrong with what Jesus thought, or that Jesus didn't actually teach this, etc. and went off and started their own. The Apostles were Catholic.

And you can't really say that a church is good because it is lasted for so long or goes back the longest.

Some people would say something that lasted this long must have something behind it.
Maybe God.

[~JCGJ~]

And you can't really say that a church is good because it is lasted for so long or goes back the longest.

Some people would say something that lasted this long must have something behind it.
Maybe God.

Hmm...

It might be fair to point out that sin has certainly lasted a long time...

Just throwing that out there.

[Blitz]

The Catholic Church actually did not appear for the first hundred or so years of Christianity or more I think.

Jesus founded the Church circa 33 AD, the Catholic Church. It was about 100 years later, I think, people started deciding this or that was wrong with what Jesus thought, or that Jesus didn't actually teach this, etc. and went off and started their own. The Apostles were Catholic.

And you can't really say that a church is good because it is lasted for so long or goes back the longest.

Some people would say something that lasted this long must have something behind it.
Maybe God.

Excuse me but the Catholic Church as it is now was started by the Roman emperors. And no lasting a long time doesn't mean it has God in it. The Catholic Church succeeded because it was enforced by emperor. The emperor need a claim so he helped the pope and the pope helped him. Like when Henry the 8 broke from the church the pope excommunicated him but it had no affect because the pope had no power except through the kings. Of course it did have some affect on Spain attacking England later on.

[Jehoshaphat]

Blitz the post you just made is why I posted this topic. The Catholic Church was persecuted by the Roman Emperors until abut 1100 A.D.

[Blitz]

Yes they did but the Church changed under the Emperor. It was good in the beginning but wasn't really named that. And your statement must also say that some persecuted them some didn't. But the Catholic Church changed more and more under the emperors.

[John Chrysostom]

What are some things that changed under the Emperors?

[jasonjannajerryjohn]

I would assume it changed from the modern day Protestant beliefs that were present at the beginning of Christianity into the evil Catholic beliefs that we have around today.

[Arkán Dreamwalker]

I would assume it changed from the modern day Protestant beliefs that were present at the beginning of Christianity into the evil Catholic beliefs that we have around today.

You aren't serious are you?

[Marvin D.]

I would assume it changed from the modern day Protestant beliefs that were present at the beginning of Christianity into the evil Catholic beliefs that we have around today.

You aren't serious are you?

He's very serious. QuadJ never uses sarcasm. Ever.

[Arkán Dreamwalker]

Wait, but you do. I am not sure just what's going on here because I don't know everyone here.

[jasonjannajerryjohn]

I would assume it changed from the modern day Protestant beliefs that were present at the beginning of Christianity into the evil Catholic beliefs that we have around today.

You aren't serious are you?

I'm always serious.