Please Clarify First

[bookworm]

Why so serious?

[jasonjannajerryjohn]

[Dr. Watson]

I would disagree that Catholic in the Nicene Creed, not the Apostles Creed, means universal I've always read it to mean fullness of teachings. Because the idea of a universal Church that was not a united Church was just not around at the time of the Creed. St. Augustine who you attribute a belief to an invisible church was a bishop of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. The origin of the phrase Catholic Church is found in a letter of a disciple of St. John the Evangelist, Ignatius of Antioch (ca. AD 100). He writes (possibly while the apostle is still living and ministering in Ephesus): “Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church” (Epistle to the Smyrnæans, 8). The idea of the Catholic Church is linked directly to the visible Church in the form of the bishop.

Now St. Augustine did say “We know where the Church is but not where it isn’t.” But you seem to be focusing on the where it isn't and ignoring that St. Augustine is saying we do know where it is. As far as what the Apostle Paul said I agree the gentiles where grafted into a visible form the Church, they weren't grafted into an invisible concept.

OK, before I respond, I just want to clarify something to prevent myself from getting confused. Do you believe in both the visible church and the invisible church? Or do you believe in just the visible church? And how would you define both of those terms?

[John Chrysostom]

I would define the visible Church as the earthly organization that stays true to the teachings of Christ given to the Church once and for always through the Apostles via Apostolic Tradition and Scripture. I would define the invisible church as more than just all believers past, present, and future. I think the term has more connotations that say the visible church is where ever people who call themselves Christians, i.e. local congregations is and that the Apostles did not appoint successors for themselves to continue a visible leadership of the Church and that says St. Augustine a bishop of a hierarchical Church who believed in Apostolic Tradition is part of a universal church where some say that bishops are wrong that believes in congregationalist, and Sola Scriptura. How would you define them?

I believe in just the visible Church.

[Graces4you]

Jehoshaphat has asked me to split the discussion about the Catholic Church. You can continue the discussion Here.

[jasonjannajerryjohn]

But this thread is supposed to be about the Catholic church, that's the topic set about by the OP.

[Jehoshaphat]

But it went beyond that, you were asking Blitz about his beliefs.

[Dasi]

This has been really annoying me for a long time and I am sure it annoys other Catholics to. Someone asks a question like this, "do you think that Catholics are Christians?" They reply "No." First person responds "Why?" then "Because they believe in worshiping people besides God". This answer is totally incorrect and a assumption based on only an 1/8 of the facts. Please if you aren't sure about something that another person believes or even if your only pretty ask first, their are a few knowledgeable Catholics who will clarify their beliefs for you. Ask yourself this would you like it if someone said, "I don't believe Protestants are Christians because they think that you can do drugs, murder people, and do a whole bunch of other stuff and still go to heaven. Anyway this is not directed at anyone in particular so just please clarify before posting an assumption.

well actually some catholics do worship like Mary. we have a neighbor who is Catholic and she says they do. so I'm not just coming up with this.

[John Chrysostom]

Sigh.

There are people who identify as Protestants who do odd things. Simply because you know one person who does something odd does not mean they represent the entire denomination or faith tradition. Instead look to the actual teachings of the denomination or tradition and see what they actually teach. Also clarify with more than just one person. The majority of Catholics would say they do not worship Mary.

[Dasi]

Sigh.

There are people who identify as Protestants who do odd things. Simply because you know one person who does something odd does not mean they represent the entire denomination or faith tradition. Instead look to the actual teachings of the denomination or tradition and see what they actually teach. Also clarify with more than just one person. The majority of Catholics would say they do not worship Mary.

uh actually that's not what I mean my neighbor doesn't worship Mary but a lot of Catholics do. I can get my mom on here if you won't belive me she will give you a whole speech about it.
and i'm not saying all Catholics do I'm just saying that they are a lot who do. and please don't say I'm wrong because how do you know you are right? I'm not saying you are wrong.

[John Chrysostom]

Seriously, re-read this thread if you haven't already. Catholics do not worship Mary. Please, do get your mom on here, I want to hear this speech. Please provide one shred of official Catholic doctrine that teaches the worship of Mary.

As I've said before, there will always be people who identify with a denomination or a tradition and abuse that tradition. Those people should not define the movement. Unless you want Catholic to start going around saying that Westboro Baptist define all Protestants.

[Dasi]

well I don't think these people know everything and my mom has read books you know by older people. and if you seriously want my mom on here than you can hear her speech.

[John Chrysostom]

These books, unless they are by Roman Catholics explaining from official doctrine how they worship Mary, does nothing to prove this point. I do seriously want to hear your mom's speech, if she is going to provide evidence from Catholic sources. If she is going to quote some Protestant describing how Catholics worship Mary then I'd rather not hear from her. Like I said this would be no better than me saying that Protestants picket soldiers funerals saying God is sending them to hell.

[Dasi]

I actually am not sure. but it would be weird if my mom came on here.....

[John Chrysostom]

Well either get her on or maybe just admit that clarifying other people's beliefs, and believing them when they tell you what they believe, is important.

[Dasi]

I don't have to believe everything. that's like making me believe that Jesus isn't God(well not that bad but sorta)

[John Chrysostom]

I'm not saying you have to believe what they believe. I'm saying you have to believe Catholics when they say that they don't worship Mary. It's their belief after all.

[Dasi]

well I believe that some don't but I also think some do worship her.

[John Chrysostom]

Okay but let's clarify, it is not official Catholic teachings that you worship Mary. Some Catholics worship Mary in the same way some Protestants treat God like a vending machine and expect Him to give them material wealth. Both are wrong and the official stance in both denominations are that it is wrong.

[Dasi]

I think that it's some Catholic's teachings that they worship Mary but like I said before not all of them they all think differently one Catholic lady said she believed that Jesus is God I'm not sure if all Catholics do.