Please Clarify First (Split Discussion)

[jasonjannajerryjohn]

Galileo was jailed because he refused to present his theory as a theory. He presented it as a fact when it was not proven.

Wait what. Why would someone want to jail someone for that? Unless they felt threatened by it.

Also in science, there's no such thing as a 100% proven "fact." And also in science, the word "theory" doesn't mean "guess," it means an idea with a large body of evidence supporting it. A hypothesis that has been tested many many times over and has been shown to be correct through multiple different experiments. Though I'm kind of tired of saying that. >_>

[bookworm]

Ahem, I know alot of Catholics and they still believe in salvation through works.

Who said they didn’t? We were talking about paying money for salvation.

[jasonjannajerryjohn]

Ahem, I know alot of Catholics and they still believe in salvation through works.

Who said they didn’t?

To the Protestant groups that most of these people came from, belief in salvation by "works" marks you as a non-Christian. Free gift of Jesus's death therefore not having to work for it.

-is translator for non-protestant people- ;D

[Blitz]

Galileo was jailed because he refused to present his theory as a theory. He presented it as a fact when it was not proven.

Nope he almost got himself jailed for proving that Aristotle was wrong about how an object falls. And Martin Luther himself escaped barely from being jailed.
I never said that people who believe in works don't go to heaven though I do believe it. Faith with out works is dead and works without faith is dead. I believe some Catholics will go to heaven and some not.

[jasonjannajerryjohn]

Galileo was jailed because he refused to present his theory as a theory. He presented it as a fact when it was not proven.

Nope he almost got himself jailed for proving that Aristotle was wrong about how an object falls. And Martin Luther himself escaped barely from being jailed.
I never said that people who believe in works don't go to heaven though I do believe it. Faith with out works is dead and works without faith is dead. I believe some Catholics will go to heaven and some not.

And than you get to answer the age old chestnut: Is Ghandi in hell? The man who inspired Martin Luther King Jr. in his non-violent protests. The man who wanted to bring people together and stop oppression. The man who was probably the most influential for peace this side of the 19th century.

[Blitz]

Ghandi, I believe, is in hell.

[jasonjannajerryjohn]

Welp. So much for God being a good guy.

[Blitz]

Did God say he was a good guy? His ways are beyond ours. We sin willingly and he paid the way. Faith in Jesus Christ is the only way. He didn't have to send his son. He is a perfect God, merciful yet also he must have justice.

[John Chrysostom]

Seriously? You're saying God isn't good? Blitz come on, stop just saying the opposite of what ever JJJJ says.

[jasonjannajerryjohn]

Pancakes are delicious.

[Blitz]

Seriously? You're saying God isn't good? Blitz come on, stop just saying the opposite of what ever JJJJ says.

I didn't say God was bad. There is no term in our human senses that could describe God. We know not the laws by which God himself lives by. We have some that give a small understanding but a true understand no.

[Jehoshaphat]

Blitz you should never say that someone is in hell. Because you don't know, like you said God is merciful and we don't know how he judges us. For all you know every person beside Jesus is in Hell.

[Christian A.]

Umm... excuse me for butting in... but, doesn't the Bible tell us how God judges people? There are specific times when Jesus says how He will judge people, like when He talks about the people who will say to Him, "Lord, Lord," who will go to hell because they did not "do the will of His Father." Acts 4:12 says that salvation is found in no one other than Jesus. If Ghandi died without being united with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection, then yes, he is in hell. Could Ghandi have repented before he died? Sure. God could have saved him on his deathbed. I don't know. So, I'm not going to say where he is. But I can say, if he did this, or if he didn't do that, then he is in one place or the other, because God's Word is clear on the issue.

[gunblader3]

So Christian A, whats your position on a person who did good things when they were alive, but died never knowing or hearing about God or Jesus? Are they going to hell because that person never accepted Jesus in their life?

[Christian A.]

Absolutely not. They're not going to hell because they didn't hear about Jesus. They go to hell because of their sins. The Bible is very clear that everyone sins, no matter how morally good they may seem as a person, and everyone therefore deserves hell. And, actually, in Isaiah, God says that even our supposed "righteous" acts are seen by Him as filthy. So even when we think we're doing good, God hates it, because it comes out of a corrupt heart.

Even if someone could do good, however, they'd still have sins to account for, and without Jesus, they cannot be accounted for. Therefore, they will go to hell--not because they didn't accept Jesus, but because they offended a holy God by their sinning.

[~JCGJ~]

Pancakes are delicious.

^^^Like^^^


*Never Again*

[gunblader3]

Absolutely not. They're not going to hell because they didn't hear about Jesus. They go to hell because of their sins. The Bible is very clear that everyone sins, no matter how morally good they may seem as a person, and everyone therefore deserves hell. And, actually, in Isaiah, God says that even our supposed "righteous" acts are seen by Him as filthy. So even when we think we're doing good, God hates it, because it comes out of a corrupt heart.

Even if someone could do good, however, they'd still have sins to account for, and without Jesus, they cannot be accounted for. Therefore, they will go to hell--not because they didn't accept Jesus, but because they offended a holy God by their sinning.

So even if you don't know you're sinning, you're still sinning anyways? That's enough merit for a person to go to hell? Well ain't that jolly. More than half of the world is probably going to die and burn in hell for eternity because they never had the convenience of being born into a Christian family. Or even hearing about Christianity for that matter.

I'm learning more about hell everyday.

[Christian A.]

Well ain't that jolly. More than half of the world is probably going to die and burn in hell for eternity because they never had the convenience of being born into a Christian family. Or even hearing about Christianity for that matter.

No... that's exactly what I said isn't the case. No one goes to hell because they weren't born into a Christian family or never heard about Christianity. They go to hell because they sin.

John won't agree with this, but Romans 5:12 says that when Adam sinned in Eden, we all sinned. Therefore, we all inherit a sinful nature upon conception. We are all naturally inclined toward sinning from the very beginning. And, the Bible would seem to indicate, we can do nothing but sin until God gives us a new heart that desires to do good. So, it's our own fault that we sin, because we took part in the rebellion against God in the beginning. We are to blame for our sin, we are to blame for our condemnation to hell, not the fact that we weren't privileged enough to hear about Christianity. I didn't deserve to hear about Jesus. I deserved to rot in hell forever. But, by the grace of God, I heard the gospel, and God used it to change my heart so that I could believe on Christ and be saved. Nobody ever gets saved from hell because they deserved it, but rather because God is merciful.

[John Chrysostom]

So, it's our own fault that we sin, because we took part in the rebellion against God in the beginning

Just to be clear under your line of reasoning our own fault = being born. So yeah being born is totally our fault, if only we in our sperm form hadn't out swum all those other sperm to fertilize that egg, I guess that's the sin of pride rearing it's ugly head.

[Christian A.]

No, I think you misunderstood me. Our problem is that we rebelled with Adam in the beginning. Romans 5:12 indicates that when Adam sinned, we all sinned, because he was our head, our representative (as Jesus is for the Church), so when he became spiritually dead as a result of his sin, we became spiritually dead as a result of our sin. Therefore, we are born spiritually dead, and it's our fault.