Please Clarify First (Split Discussion)

[John Chrysostom]

Romans 5:12 says "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned"

It is an interesting interpretation to say that we all, not existing at that point in time, sinned with Adam. I would say a more accurate interpretation would be that we are living under the consequences of Adam's sin; death. And in our now mortal lives we all sin.

To say that we are guilty of Adam's sin makes about as much sense as saying that a child born with physical defects because it's mother smoked while pregnant is guilty of her actions. The baby is living under the consequences of her actions but is in no way guilty of them himself.

[Christian A.]

Just as God unites us to Christ when we believe, and His life becomes our life (and ours His), God has united all humanity with Adam, so that when he sinned, he acted as our head. The verse says, "death spread to all men because all sinned." Spiritual death to all would make no sense unless we all committed that same sin of Adam. Furthermore, verse 19 says that through Adam's sin, we were all made sinners. We are sinners at birth. We don't sin to become sinners; we sin because we are sinners already.

[John Chrysostom]

I disagree with you on such a profound level. To me that argument is, as I said, just like saying a baby is guilty of bad actions it's mother committed while pregnant.

You are ignoring the great many commas that separate the actors and actions in this verse. Sin entered the world through Adam "comma" death came from sin "comma" death spread to all men "comma" because all men sin "period" Because all men sin we die, not because Adam sinned but because we all sin. Adam caused death to enter the world by his sin but we do not die because of Adam's sin we die because of our own sin.

But let's talk about the larger topic, is Ghandi in hell? We cannot say, we should not judge others. We can say what the normative way to Salvation is, you and I would disagree about what that is, but the point still stands that we agree there is a normative way. But what is the point in saying that Ghandi is in hell? More importantly than condemning others we are called to love others just as Christ loves us. In Matthew 25 note that those who served God did so by giving food to the hungry, sheltering the stranger, giving clothes to the naked, and visiting those in prison. God didn't say "You saw those who weren't saved and told them they were going to hell" or "You saw people who disagreed with you and said they were going to hell" In fact it doesn't say anything about actually speaking, just doing.

[jasonjannajerryjohn]

Sounds like according to that verse Ghandi would be in heaven despite not explicitly being a Christian. Heh.

[bookworm]

I never said that people who believe in works don't go to heaven though I do believe it.

Faith with out works is dead and works without faith is dead.

These statements contradict each other.

[Christian A.]

Sounds like according to that verse Ghandi would be in heaven despite not explicitly being a Christian. Heh.

According to what verse?

[bookworm]

Sounds like according to that verse Ghandi would be in heaven despite not explicitly being a Christian. Heh.

According to what verse?

—

[gunblader3]

Well ain't that jolly. More than half of the world is probably going to die and burn in hell for eternity because they never had the convenience of being born into a Christian family. Or even hearing about Christianity for that matter.

No... that's exactly what I said isn't the case. No one goes to hell because they weren't born into a Christian family or never heard about Christianity. They go to hell because they sin.

John won't agree with this, but Romans 5:12 says that when Adam sinned in Eden, we all sinned. Therefore, we all inherit a sinful nature upon conception. We are all naturally inclined toward sinning from the very beginning. And, the Bible would seem to indicate, we can do nothing but sin until God gives us a new heart that desires to do good. So, it's our own fault that we sin, because we took part in the rebellion against God in the beginning. We are to blame for our sin, we are to blame for our condemnation to hell, not the fact that we weren't privileged enough to hear about Christianity. I didn't deserve to hear about Jesus. I deserved to rot in hell forever. But, by the grace of God, I heard the gospel, and God used it to change my heart so that I could believe on Christ and be saved. Nobody ever gets saved from hell because they deserved it, but rather because God is merciful.

Here's my point. Apparently the only way to be cleansed of your sin is if you accept God/Jesus into your life. After all you were a lucky individual to hear about the gospel(most likely born into a Christian household). But what happens if you were never given the opportunity on earth/lifetime to hear about Christianity and died in that state? If they can never had any knowledge of Christianity at all, then their sins can never be cleansed therefore would be going straight to hell. How exactly is that a Just system? So not everyone on earth has an equal chance of being saved because they didn't know what they were doing was wrong.

One of these case would happen to be my grandpa and uncle. My dad side of the family lived in a secluded village in Vietnam, never ever hearing about Christianity, but were devout Buddhist because of the environment they lived in. Then the Vietnam war struck and my dad's village got caught in the cross fire of it, which both my Grandpa and Uncle died as result of it. So, from the information you provided, you know for sure that both my grandpa and uncle are probably dieing and burning in hell for eternity because they were never given a choice whether to reject God or not.

The point I am trying to bring is that heaven/hell system is definitely not black and white. I agree with many Catholics who state that we (humans) cannot be the ones to judge whether people go to hell or not. Its up to God, after all he's the one who made up this system and not man (right?) so we don't know fully if they're damned or not.

[Christian A.]

Here's my point. Apparently the only way to be cleansed of your sin is if you accept God/Jesus into your life. After all you were a lucky individual to hear about the gospel(most likely born into a Christian household). But what happens if you were never given the opportunity on earth/lifetime to hear about Christianity and died in that state? If they can never had any knowledge of Christianity at all, then their sins can never be cleansed therefore would be going straight to hell. How exactly is that a Just system? So not everyone on earth has an equal chance of being saved because they didn't know what they were doing was wrong.

You are correct. Not everyone on Earth has an equal chance at being saved. God never said that they would. No one deserves salvation, so if someone gets a chance at it, it's only because God decided to have mercy on them. God is not obligated to show mercy to everyone. Even if He only ever saved one person in the history of the universe, He'd still be a just, holy, and extremely merciful God.

And, actually, the Bible says that everyone who sins knows that what they are doing is wrong. People don't have to be told that lying, stealing, murdering, committing adultery, jealousy, etc. is wrong; the law is written on their hearts, as Romans 1 and 2 say; they are without excuse. They may not live morally or within these boundaries, and they may drown out the voice of their conscience and become morally numb. But God has instilled within us a natural knowledge of right and wrong so that we cannot plead innocence because of ignorance.

One of these case would happen to be my grandpa and uncle. My dad side of the family lived in a secluded village in Vietnam, never ever hearing about Christianity, but were devout Buddhist because of the environment they lived in. Then the Vietnam war struck and my dad's village got caught in the cross fire of it, which both my Grandpa and Uncle died as result of it. So, from the information you provided, you know for sure that both my grandpa and uncle are probably dieing and burning in hell for eternity because they were never given a choice whether to reject God or not.

You do have somewhat of a point. People can't reject Christ directly if they never heard about Him. They can't know about God's desire for them to be saved unless someone tells them (Romans 10). Jesus actually addresses this in one of His many parables. Luke 12:47-48 says, "And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few."

So, God does not punish people with more than what they deserve. Every sin deserves an eternity in hell. But there are also, apparently, levels within hell. Those who did not know about Jesus will not be punished as severely, because they did not commit the sin of rejecting Him, because they did not know about Him. But those who do know about Jesus and still reject Him will suffer a hotter hell.

The point I am trying to bring is that heaven/hell system is definitely not black and white. I agree with many Catholics who state that we (humans) cannot be the ones to judge whether people go to hell or not. Its up to God, after all he's the one who made up this system and not man (right?) so we don't know fully if they're damned or not.

I'm not stating it black and white. Apart from the people who are definitively stated in the Bible to have gone to heaven, I don't know who's in heaven and who's in hell. For all I know, Adolf Hitler may have repented before he died, and John Calvin could have been a secret false convert all his life. In that sense, God is the Judge, and I do not know.

But I do know the mind of God, to the extent that He has revealed it in His Word. He says that He will by no means clear the guilty. The only way a guilty person can enter heaven is if someone has taken his punishment for him--Jesus. Unless one repents of his sins and trusts the blood of Christ to cover him and make him acceptable before God, he can have no hope of entering heaven. The Bible presents this as black and white, so that's why I'm presenting it that way.

[bookworm]

I’ve already had a conversation before about ‘Do the ignorant go to Hell’ but I have to readdress it here because it’s something I feel very strongly about.

I truly am unable to comprehend where the idea comes from that people who, through no fault of their own, have not learned of God will be matter-of-factly sent to Hell. I don’t understand how anyone can even come up with that thought; it makes no sense whatsoever.

I understand the basis for it. Sin is sin whether one knows it or not, and if one sins and does not repent one goes to Hell. I have no problem with that, because of course that’s true. But what I have a serious problem with, and what my mind is unable to process, is the leap from that understanding to the position that if one does not know God they can’t repent, and therefore have unrepented sins and go to Hell. That may be ‘mathematically’ correct, from a very brief glance, but it doesn’t hold up if you give it deeper thought.

For one to repent of their sins, they have to realize their sins are sins! That’s not to say they aren’t still sinning, but if they don’t know it then they cannot be found guilty of the sin. That is, they did sin, but they did not necessarily commit a sin, if you follow me. If someone does something wrong, but doesn’t realize it is wrong, then the person cannot be faulted as if they intentionally did wrong, even though the act itself is wrong.

Consider the standard scenario for these kinds of discussions: a native deep in the jungle.
He lives his life as best he knows how. He has never heard of God or Jesus or sin or anything like that. He has no idea there is a ‘greater purpose’ for life and there are things he should do to live ‘right’ and get to Heaven. He does have a conscience, as all people do, so he realizes there is a right and wrong. It may be aligned somewhat differently than someone living in a civilized area, but there is definitely a good and bad he can sense. He goes through his life attempting to follow the good, as he understands it. He commits sins along the way, as every human does, but he’s doing his best to live a good life. Then one day he dies. Will he go to Hell?

The black and white answer is ‘Yes, he certainly will.’ He committed sins and never repented of them, he has to go to Hell.
But the reasonable answer is ‘We don’t know.’ He committed sins and never repented of them, but that was because he didn’t know he was supposed to! You can’t repent of something you don’t know is wrong! If he had heard about Jesus and had realized he had sinned, there is every reason to believe he would have. He lived his life as best as he could under what he knew.

Everyone has to choose between God or sin. That choice is what decides whether they go to Heaven or Hell. But for one to make that choice, they must realize there is a choice. God is the ultimate fulfillment of mercy, He will absolutely not punish someone on a technicality. He will ensure, one way or another, that everyone has had a sufficient opportunity to make their choice. For most people, it is during their lifetime when they learn about Him and the necessity to turn from sin. But for those who don’t learn about Him He will provide another way. Some way, at some time, this native will be provided with the information he needs to make his choice. We don’t know when or how this choice is made by every person, but we do know it is always made.

So not everyone on earth has an equal chance of being saved because they didn't know what they were doing was wrong.

You are correct. Not everyone on Earth has an equal chance at being saved.

He didn’t say that, he was paraphrasing you. And no that is not correct. Not everyone has the same chance of being saved (someone who hears about Jesus from a church as opposed to the previously mentioned native) but everyone has an equal chance. God wants everyone to be saved, He will make sure everyone has the opportunity. The rest is up to them, whether they accept His forgiveness or not, but the chance will always be given.

God has instilled within us a natural knowledge of right and wrong so that we cannot plead innocence because of ignorance.

That’s exactly what I’m saying. The ignorance we’re talking about is not ignorance of sin, it’s ignorance of God. Someone can not know God and repent of their sin. As you say, we don’t need God to know right from wrong (for the most part) so if the native has a feeling in his conscience that he did something wrong, he is perfectly capable of thinking ‘I’m sorry I did that, that was wrong.’ That is sorrow and repentance for his sin, but not repentance to God because he doesn’t know God. You’re saying that isn’t good enough, I’m saying of course it is. He is unable to do any more! He has repented to the best of his ability, God cannot fault that, indeed He will even praise that.

God does not punish people with more than what they deserve. Every sin deserves an eternity in hell. But there are also, apparently, levels within hell. Those who did not know about Jesus will not be punished as severely, because they did not commit the sin of rejecting Him, because they did not know about Him. But those who do know about Jesus and still reject Him will suffer a hotter hell.

This is the argument that most frustrates and saddens me to hear people make, because it is wrong. ‘Levels of Hell’? Hell is Hell! Eternal punishment is eternal punishment, whether it’s of a lesser ‘degree’ or not! Hell is the ultimate punishment. You’re treating it like a modern criminal justice system. ‘You have extenuating circumstances, you get a lesser sentence.’ NO! There is no lesser sentence in Hell. All souls in Hell suffer alike. So the statement that God is still merciful because out of mercy he condemns them to a ‘lesser’ Hell is self-contradictory. God is merciful, so He will not send someone to any ‘degree’ of Hell if they did not deserve it by them making the choice not to accept His forgiveness. A choice that once again can only be made if they know about it.

[Sherlock]

This question is partially tongue-in-cheek, but given that the concept of sola fide (salvation by faith alone) only gained significant theological recognition during the Protestant Reformation and is now being claimed by some as a necessary doctrine to accept in order to be saved, are we to conclude that Christians who lived prior to the promulgation of sola fide are also in suffering in Hell? According to Christian A's argument, it appears that they must, since ignorance of doctrine does not excuse one from damnation. I presume this must also apply retroactively when new doctrines are defined.

Christian A, you can correct me if I am wrong, but you subscribe to the Calvinist view on the salvation of the Elect, correct? This would appear to explain your view that God does not offer everyone an equal chance to be saved.

The whole line of argument clearly descends into the absurd but it also very clearly highlights a major theological difference that separates Protestants from other denominations, namely the mostly mainstream Lutheran belief that man, as created, is inherently evil. The other view says that man is good as created, but also fallen due to the consequences of sin brought on by Adam. If we are inherently evil then yes, it makes sense that regardless of our ignorance we should all end up in hell, whether or not we ever have the chance to learn about God or repent of our sins. However, this chain of logic strongly hinges upon the presupposition that man is an evil creature that deserves Hell by his very nature, a theological conclusion that I would disagree with. Sins are deserving of Hell, but the human person himself was created in the image and likeness of God, he suffers from a good but fallen nature and must strive to overcome that nature through whatever circumstances he has available (be it you or I, or Ghandi or the hypothetical tribal person living in a remote part of the world).