613: The Top Floor, Part III

Discussion and Reviews!

Archived reviews of Adventures in Odyssey episodes!

Rate "The Top Floor, Part III" (with wonderfully imaginative titles...) :x

Five Stars (*****)
29
64%
Four Stars (****)
11
24%
Three Stars (***)
4
9%
Two Stars (**)
0
No votes
One Star (*)
1
2%
 
Total votes: 45

User avatar
Laurie
Climbing the Ladder
Posts: 13966
Joined: April 2005
Location: In front of my computer.

Post by Laurie »

I for one do NOT have a problem with this. Everyone here needs to remember that AIO is FICTION, so the writers are going to take liberties with characters.
User avatar
Jonathan
Dungeon Master
Posts: 11352
Joined: April 2005
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota

Post by Jonathan »

Laurie wrote:I for one do NOT have a problem with this. Everyone here needs to remember that AIO is FICTION, so the writers are going to take liberties with characters.
And I'm fine with that, as long as we stay out of a soap opera zone ;)
User avatar
Laurie
Climbing the Ladder
Posts: 13966
Joined: April 2005
Location: In front of my computer.

Post by Laurie »

Jonathan wrote:
Laurie wrote:I for one do NOT have a problem with this. Everyone here needs to remember that AIO is FICTION, so the writers are going to take liberties with characters.
And I'm fine with that, as long as we stay out of a soap opera zone ;)
Yep, me too!! :wink:
User avatar
Shadowpaw
Town Founder
Posts: 2777
Joined: March 2005
Location: Calgary, AB
Contact:

Post by Shadowpaw »

Jonathan wrote:In the case of Leonard, we had a grave, in Odyssey. But haha, just kidding, there he is. Same with Everett. Before this, we were given the impression that they were dead. How many times were we told that Eugene's parents were killed in an archeological expidition?
Your points would be valid if they were correct, but they aren't. :(

There IS a gravestone, yes, but you seem to be forgetting the point of "Last in a Long Line." Eugene sets out to find out whether or not his father was buried in Odyssey, only to discover that he was not buried in Odyssey and the gravestone was just a memorial marker because Leonard was presumed to have died in Africa. There is no body under that gravestone.

Second, to quote directly from "Last in a Long Line" Eugene tells Whit (when asked how his parents died): "I was always told that both my parents were lost on an anthropologic expedition in the rainforest of Zaire and Africa. I was only seven."

Again, Eugene was brought up to believe his parents were lost... which naturally leads to an assumption that they are dead. But there has never been any evidence presented on the show to indicate they were dead. Only that Eugene and everyone else has been lead to believe they were dead because they were never heard from again after the expedition in Africa.
Jonathan wrote:But Leonard was presented as dead! We were told, numerous times that he and Eugene's Mom were killed. Numerous times. And no one else (cept a select few) seems to have a problem with this fact.
Well I would imagine it's because it's not a fact that Leonard (or Thelma for that matter) were dead. The only facts Eugene and the audience had were that his parents were lost and that a memorial had been erected in Leonard's honor in Odyssey. And I don't think we've been told "numerous times", especially since (to beat a dead horse) they have no evidence that Leonard or Thelma were killed or that they even died. All we know is that they haven't contacted anyone in the outside world since their trip.

Based on the evidence the characters have and the evidence that we, the audience, have been given over the entire course of the series, there's not one piece of evidence that discounts the possibility that Leonard and Thelma survived. Which makes the recent story arc not only plausible, but expected by many of us (myself included).
User avatar
Flyah
Popsicle kid
Posts: 475
Joined: April 2005
Location: Daily Planet / Phone Booth

Post by Flyah »

Corey wrote:
Jonathan wrote:In the case of Leonard, we had a grave, in Odyssey. But haha, just kidding, there he is. Same with Everett. Before this, we were given the impression that they were dead. How many times were we told that Eugene's parents were killed in an archeological expidition?
Your points would be valid if they were correct, but they aren't. :(

There IS a gravestone, yes, but you seem to be forgetting the point of "Last in a Long Line." Eugene sets out to find out whether or not his father was buried in Odyssey, only to discover that he was not buried in Odyssey and the gravestone was just a memorial marker because Leonard was presumed to have died in Africa. There is no body under that gravestone.

Second, to quote directly from "Last in a Long Line" Eugene tells Whit (when asked how his parents died): "I was always told that both my parents were lost on an anthropologic expedition in the rainforest of Zaire and Africa. I was only seven."

Again, Eugene was brought up to believe his parents were lost... which naturally leads to an assumption that they are dead. But there has never been any evidence presented on the show to indicate they were dead. Only that Eugene and everyone else has been lead to believe they were dead because they were never heard from again after the expedition in Africa.
Jonathan wrote:But Leonard was presented as dead! We were told, numerous times that he and Eugene's Mom were killed. Numerous times. And no one else (cept a select few) seems to have a problem with this fact.
Well I would imagine it's because it's not a fact that Leonard (or Thelma for that matter) were dead. The only facts Eugene and the audience had were that his parents were lost and that a memorial had been erected in Leonard's honor in Odyssey. And I don't think we've been told "numerous times", especially since (to beat a dead horse) they have no evidence that Leonard or Thelma were killed or that they even died. All we know is that they haven't contacted anyone in the outside world since their trip.

Based on the evidence the characters have and the evidence that we, the audience, have been given over the entire course of the series, there's not one piece of evidence that discounts the possibility that Leonard and Thelma survived. Which makes the recent story arc not only plausible, but expected by many of us (myself included).
Then they could bring Jerry back as well....all these semantics.. come on...they were dead....whether they were presumed 'lost', 'missing' awol' or whatever, to the listener they were dead. Whether you call it 'retconning' or whatever, it's way too convenient. It was one of Eugene's characteristics that made him who he was, an 'orhpan' or sorts who came to depend on Whit as a surrogate father - that is stripped away now and to the listener who has invested in these characters, it rings hollow. I think that other storylines could have been more imaginative and less 'soap opera' like as Jonathan has stated. When the writers take liberties with a characters history, it makes the listener feel vulnerable.

But it's their show, their right, I'm just saying it kind of takes the guts out of Eugene's character for me.
User avatar
Thursday Next
Catspaw Rocks!
Posts: 910
Joined: April 2005
Contact:

Post by Thursday Next »

The writers have been setting us up for this ever since Prisoner's of Fear which would be a year ago. It would be easy for everyone involved to consider Lenard and Thelma dead because no one heard from them. They heard they were lost, but after a while they begin to lose hope that they're even alive, so it's just assumed they died. Jerry is dead. He's on the war Memorial, he was in the imagination station adventure of death in "The Mortal Coil". Jason even confirms he's dead. There is no way that they are going to resurrect Jerry. In fact recent turn of events don't bother me at all.
Image
User avatar
Jonathan
Dungeon Master
Posts: 11352
Joined: April 2005
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota

Post by Jonathan »

Flyah wrote:When the writers take liberties with a characters history, it makes the listener feel vulnerable.
And cheated.
Corey wrote:
Jonathan wrote:In the case of Leonard, we had a grave, in Odyssey. But haha, just kidding, there he is. Same with Everett. Before this, we were given the impression that they were dead. How many times were we told that Eugene's parents were killed in an archeological expidition?
Your points would be valid if they were correct, but they aren't. :(

There IS a gravestone, yes, but you seem to be forgetting the point of "Last in a Long Line." Eugene sets out to find out whether or not his father was buried in Odyssey, only to discover that he was not buried in Odyssey and the gravestone was just a memorial marker because Leonard was presumed to have died in Africa. There is no body under that gravestone.

Second, to quote directly from "Last in a Long Line" Eugene tells Whit (when asked how his parents died): "I was always told that both my parents were lost on an anthropologic expedition in the rainforest of Zaire and Africa. I was only seven."
Hm. Well then, I guess I was just reacting to the impression I got from those episodes. Speaking of which,
Again, Eugene was brought up to believe his parents were lost... which naturally leads to an assumption that they are dead.
that makes my point quite well ;) Though I doubt you meant it that way, or many others will read it that way.
But there has never been any evidence presented on the show to indicate they were dead. Only that Eugene and everyone else has been lead to believe they were dead because they were never heard from again after the expedition in Africa.
Even still, I held that assumption for many years. And like Flyah said, it was part of what made Eugene Eugene. And I was willing to overlook all my own problems with this, but bringing Everett into the picture completly and totally ruined this for me.
Jonathan wrote:But Leonard was presented as dead! We were told, numerous times that he and Eugene's Mom were killed. Numerous times. And no one else (cept a select few) seems to have a problem with this fact.
Based on the evidence the characters have and the evidence that we, the audience, have been given over the entire course of the series, there's not one piece of evidence that discounts the possibility that Leonard and Thelma survived. Which makes the recent story arc not only plausible, but expected by many of us (myself included).
I suppose I can appreciate that. But I still don't like it, because of what I've said before, what we were led to believe, and because of stuff going on in my offline life.

The last thing I'll say is weren't Eugene's parents also mentioned in the Cross of Cortez too? Y'know, the stuff about parents lost due to a cutthroat field of work (kinda points to the fact that they were dead, no?). That's the other place I was thinking of.
User avatar
Shadowpaw
Town Founder
Posts: 2777
Joined: March 2005
Location: Calgary, AB
Contact:

Post by Shadowpaw »

Jonathan wrote:The last thing I'll say is weren't Eugene's parents also mentioned in the Cross of Cortez too? Y'know, the stuff about parents lost due to a cutthroat field of work (kinda points to the fact that they were dead, no?). That's the other place I was thinking of.
I'd have to listen to it again and it's possible you're right, but I don't that points to them being dead at all. It only furthers the proof that they were lost due to the cutthroat field of work. We've since learned this is exactly what happened. They lost contact with the outside world because they were being held captive, due to the cutthroat field of work.

I just realized something, maybe's its semantics... when Flyah and Jonathan, you hear "lost" do you think "dead?" Kind of like in an operating room when they say "we've lost him?" Or do you think of it as "lost" as in "missing?" I always think "missing" which changes the implications of the word entirely.

Going back to an early point about Jerry, I think there's a big difference. There is no lingering questions about his death. The army came to Whit's door and told him that he had been "killed in action." He didn't go MIA, he's not missing and "The Very Best of Friends" indicates his body is actually buried in the cemetary. We have no reason to believe he's anything but dead. With Leonard and Thelma, there was never concrete proof of their demise (in terms of physical bodies or somebody proclaiming that they have died). The parents went on a trip and never returned so everyone in their lives assumed they were dead, but assuming someone is dead doesn't make it so. Being told someone is dead, like we were with Jerry, makes it much more difficult to bring him back into the picture and the writers would never do that... at least not again.

And that's the reason I hated the Robert Mitchell story so much because we were told he was dead and had to go through all the motions. His revival makes all of that emotional stuff pointless and a waste of time and ruins what was an incredible 4 parter. I can certainly sympathize with people who's perception of Eugene is now different when listening to older episodes, and mine will be as well, but only because the questions I asked about his parentage have finally been answered. It doesn't change who Eugene was: a young man who his entire life assumed his parents were dead. Only time will tell if this was a good decision to bring Eugene's father back, so I guess we'll see.
User avatar
Jonathan
Dungeon Master
Posts: 11352
Joined: April 2005
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota

Post by Jonathan »

Corey wrote:I just realized something, maybe's its semantics... when Flyah and Jonathan, you hear "lost" do you think "dead?" Kind of like in an operating room when they say "we've lost him?" Or do you think of it as "lost" as in "missing?" I always think "missing" which changes the implications of the word entirely.
Yes, that is how I read the word lost in that context.
Corey wrote:And that's the reason I hated the Robert Mitchell story so much because we were told he was dead and had to go through all the motions. His revival makes all of that emotional stuff pointless and a waste of time and ruins what was an incredible 4 parter.
If the whole Mitch thing hadn't have happened, I probably wouldn't be as upset as I am with this story.
User avatar
Ferder
Pilgrim
Posts: 286
Joined: April 2005
Location: BC, Canada

Post by Ferder »

Corey wrote: And that's the reason I hated the Robert Mitchell story so much because we were told he was dead and had to go through all the motions.
I'm always surprised that you were fooled by the whole Mitch thing. It was forshadowed since the end of PlanB part 2 by the ambiguity that Mitch's "death" was just a set-up.
But I don't see why we need to get all riled up about the possibility of Jerry returning from the dead, because it's not happening anyway.
User avatar
Shadowpaw
Town Founder
Posts: 2777
Joined: March 2005
Location: Calgary, AB
Contact:

Post by Shadowpaw »

Ferder wrote:
Corey wrote: And that's the reason I hated the Robert Mitchell story so much because we were told he was dead and had to go through all the motions.
I'm always surprised that you were fooled by the whole Mitch thing. It was forshadowed since the end of PlanB part 2 by the ambiguity that Mitch's "death" was just a set-up.
But I don't see why we need to get all riled up about the possibility of Jerry returning from the dead, because it's not happening anyway.
I still recall my feelings at the time I heard it and I was quite disappointed that Mitch was AREM, as everyone had already suspected it at that point. But having him killed off was a huge twist and I was not only shocked but I admired the Odyssey team's story telling for the first time in several years. And the way I interpreted the scene where we hear Mitch "die" was Charles' men catching up with Mitch and taking him down. Whit arrives shortly afterward only to be informed that the police arrived too late and he was dead. There didn't seem to be any ambiguity to me (and I don't recall any foreshadowing), and as I was also in talks with the writers around that time (primarily Nathan Hoobler) I was certainly lead to believe that his death was final.

The reasoning I was given was that it was time the show dealt with death in a serious way and having a character we had known for a while die was the way to do it. Odyssey had never unfairly toyed with our emotions in the past and I had no reason to believe they were going to take something as serious as a death and turn it into a soap opera. Plan B renewed my faith so much in the series that I re-opened the Soda Fountain as a result. It had been shut down for nearly a year at that point and I had no intention of starting it up again but the quality of the show had risen dramatically and I was once again invested in the series. The fact the team was willing to take such risks and up the ante (with a body count) was impressive and the possibility of it not being true never really weighed on me because Odyssey was not that kind of show. I imagine I also discounted many people's theories that Mitch was still alive as I simply believed Focus on the Family was above that.

Of course, "The Unraveling" was a turning point in my opinions towards AIO. The revelation that Mitch was alive destroyed the illusion that Odyssey was a "real town" with real characters and real events. It had officially become a drama, or soap opera, where nothing was final and the writers were free to toy with our emotions to further the story in anyway they wanted. I don't dislike the show now, but I certainly view it in a different way where everything is more sensationalized and cartoony. Mitch's resurrection was (for me personally) the single worst thing that ever happened to Odyssey (even worse than the split episodes) as it changed my perception of the series entirely. Had we found out Mitch was alive the very next episode, it would have been easier to digest, but we were manipulated for months. And of course the most absurd thing is that Mitch didn't need to come back. He played only a minor role in the remaining shows before he was written out entirely.

But I'm on a rant... I could spend hours on this issue but it's too frustrating and probably annoying for people to read. :) Taking it back to the topic (well kind of the topic) I don't mind Leonard being alive because I don't feel manipulated to think a certain way. I've been lead to believe Eugene's parents went missing and were never heard from again and Leonard being alive doesn't shatter those beliefs. I also never knew Leonard, so I had nothing invested in his character.... whereas Mitch we had heard from quite a bit.

Of course for people who have always felt Eugene's parents were certifiably dead and that any episode where Eugene references his parents now have a different impact, than I definitely can empathize with you. I, fortunately, don't feel that same way when it comes to Leonard but it's the kind of feeling that just eats at you when it involves something so important to us as AIO is... this isn't a casual interest, we live and breathe through Odyssey. Would I prefer that Leonard hadn't come back? For sure. But, on the other hand, these Leonard episodes have been highlights of the last 4 seasons and provided us with pretty good entertainment. But we as fans now think about what the "writers" will come up with next... whereas I think in the classic days of AIO, we were more concerned with what the "characters" would do next. I think that distinction is why a lot of us feel differently about the series now (along with things like the awful music cues and cartoon-like plots). But that, my friends, is a rant for another day. :)
User avatar
Elgian
Fourscore and seven
Posts: 89
Joined: April 2006
Location: Texas
Contact:

Post by Elgian »

Wow, very nicely said, Corey. I was actually pleased when Mitch orignally returned but now I'm also one of the masses irritated by his resurrection. His return tastes of soap opera, took the legs out of all the episodes dealing with his death, and his storyline after Novacom really only succeeded in making fans frustrated with him.

Anyway, that's really the only issue I have with this new story line. It just sounds too much like a soap opera, and I miss my grounded-in-reality fun-but-also-serious Odyssey of 1995 and such. Leonard was okay, but Everett seems... a bit much. I guess I'm just being disatisfied and thinking of what Odyssey could be at this point. The writing for Eugene and Katrina didn't adapt as well as I expected from single adults to married couple.

However, I will maintain faith in the writers and eagerly await whatever they have in store for this new arc. Too much critisism is never good for the soul. =)
User avatar
Jonathan Park
Gold Member
Posts: 56
Joined: January 2007
Location: Somewhere you aren't unless you are me
Contact:

Post by Jonathan Park »

This is one of my favorite overall episodes because it is soooo intense. I liked the twist about Everett still being alive =D> But it had a very upseting ending. I mean Dalton didn't even try to escape. :noway:
User avatar
connies#1fan
Found
Posts: 316
Joined: May 2007
Location: Odyssey (of course)
Contact:

Post by connies#1fan »

I liked this episode a lot. Jonathan, do you remember the episdode about the memorial in Odyssey for the people who died fighting in Vietnam? Well in that one, someone asks Whit if he is related to Jerry. Whit says that Jerry was his son and that he died in Vietnam.
"The Call" - Regina Spektor
You'll come back
When it's over
No need to say good bye..
Image
User avatar
jasonjannajerryjohn
I revere the admins
I revere the admins
Posts: 5561
Joined: July 2007
Location: Classified
Contact:

Post by jasonjannajerryjohn »

connies#1fan wrote:I liked this episode a lot. Jonathan, do you remember the episdode about the memorial in Odyssey for the people who died fighting in Vietnam? Well in that one, someone asks Whit if he is related to Jerry. Whit says that Jerry was his son and that he died in Vietnam.
I'm not Jonathan, but I remeber it!
Image
Peri: Do you mean the TARDIS is malfunctioning again?
The Doctor: Malfunctioning? [pause] Malfunctioning? MALFUNCTIONING!?
User avatar
Jonathan
Dungeon Master
Posts: 11352
Joined: April 2005
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota

Post by Jonathan »

I remember it too--ep 28, I believe.

I'm curious though, do you see a connection between the two episodes?
User avatar
connies#1fan
Found
Posts: 316
Joined: May 2007
Location: Odyssey (of course)
Contact:

Post by connies#1fan »

I just wanted to point out that Jerry couldn't possibly come back, unlike Lenord, who was just missing, and assummed dead.
"The Call" - Regina Spektor
You'll come back
When it's over
No need to say good bye..
Image
User avatar
Jonathan
Dungeon Master
Posts: 11352
Joined: April 2005
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota

Post by Jonathan »

Ah, yes, I see what you are getting at.

However, we were never told he was missing, but that he had been lost (see Last in a Long Line and Cross of Cortez Part 1). Corey has suggested that phrase means different things to different people. For some, yes, it says missing.

For me (and others), it means dead.

Therefore it's very understandable and reasonable as to why I came to the conclusion I did (if I know what posts and arguments of mine you are referring to, of course--I wrote them some time ago after all).
User avatar
dsheets
I'm fifteen, mom!
Posts: 19
Joined: February 2007
Location: inside a giant yellow cake

Post by dsheets »

I personally enjoyed several scenes in this particular episode, however, there were a few scenes which I found to be somewhat disturbing and probably could have been written better. They didn't disturb me in that I was frightened beyond belief when I heard them. They disturbed me because of the rather mature themes they conveyed. Yes, they were subtle in their presentation, but they were there just the same. In particular I'm referring to the scene where Everett walks into the room and sees Whit watching a movie about his "dad" behaving like a tyrant. It's bad enough that he sees what he thinks is his dad violently looking for a baby. That alone is cause for concern, but Everett also discovers that the baby Dalton is looking for is in fact himself. I am not sure that kind of scene was absolutely necessary. That's a lot for a child to take in all at once, but it did help lead Everett to see that Leonard was his true father and in turn helped bring the story a temporary conclusion. I think the story could have been improved by showing how Everett comes to think of Leonard as his father by spending time with Leonard and seeing that he actually does love him, rather than coming to the conclusion that Leonard is better than Dalton simply because he saw a video of Dalton behaving terribly and Leonard standing up to him. At the end of the story, Everett sides with Leonard, Eugene, Jason, and Whit even though he barely knows them. He also turns over Dalton to the authorities even though he still thinks of him as his dad. Everett still loves Dalton, but his image of his "father" is now scarred with his new knowledge of the past. Everett should not be glad that he has found his real dad, he should be angry and saddened by what seems to be a very unfortunate turn of events. It was clearly portrayed that Everett and Dalton loved eachother, and now Everett has to live with the guilt of sending a man he thought was his father to prison. In my opinion, Everett will be spending a significant amount of time with the child psychologist once he gets back to Odyssey.

Maybe Dr. Dobson should be a consultant.
"If you casually cover your mouth with your hand, you will never put your foot in it."
-Danny Kaye
zuzus_petals
Not as new
Posts: 33
Joined: July 2007

Post by zuzus_petals »

I think The Top Floor Part1-3 Is O.K
:-s
Post Reply