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Manuscript 1: Darien's Rise

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:57 am
by Taq
Please post your thoughts! Here are some of mine:

A Bit of Reflection
I really liked how the spiritual odysseys of Kyle and Anna were woven throughout Darien’s story. They went from not believing to believing. They carried out the Unseen One’s work as the protector and voice. They had doubts, and Kyle even stopped believing at one point. The kids believed in the real world.

In addition, I liked the personal maturations, Anna becoming bolder, for example.

I liked how McCusker used the device of Anna’s visions to tell us parts of the story.

I liked how the Old Judge’s name is revealed.

Marus
2 moons (how the kids know they’re not in Odyssey anymore)
Brighter colors
1 blue and 1 green eye for prophets (Anna, Old Judge, Sister Leona, Anastasia)

Unseen One = God
Marutians = Israelites
Sacred Scrolls = Scripture

Darien’s Rise = David’s rise to kingship (1 Samuel)

People
Darien = David
Prince George = Jonathan
King Lawrence = Saul
Old Judge = Samuel
Michelle = Michal
Commander Soren = Goliath
Shepherd = Doeg the Edomite
Sister Leona = Ahimelech
Anastasia = Witch of Endor

Places
Nob = Dorr
Kellen = Keilah

Events
The Old Judge was dedicated to God. He anointed both Lawrence and Darien.
Samuel was dedicated to God (1 Samuel 1). He anointed both Saul (1 Samuel 9) and David (1 Samuel 16).

Darien killed Commander Soren with a pocketknife.
David killed Goliath with a slingshot (1 Samuel 17).

Lawrence sent Darien to retrieve 100 Palatian medals in order to wed his daughter Michelle; Darien retrieved 200 medals.
Saul sent David to retrieve 100 Philistine foreskins in order to wed his daughter Michal; David retrieved 200 foreskins (1 Samuel 18:20-30).

Lawrence tried to kill Darien with an assassin twice at Krawley and once with the crossbow.
Saul tried to kill David with the spear twice (1 Samuel 18:10-11) and then with the spear again (1 Samuel 19:9-10).

Michelle allowed Darien to escape through a window. She stalled Lawrence’s men with a suit of armor in the bed and claimed that Darien threatened her.
Michal allowed David to escape through a window. She stalled Saul’s men with an idol and goat’s hair in the bed and claimed that David threatened her (1 Samuel 19:11-17).

Lawrence sent men to capture Darien, but the Old Judge sent away groups of men laughing and crying. Finally, Lawrence went to the Old Judge himself and also laughed and cried.
Saul sent men to capture David, but Samuel sent away groups of men prophesying. Finally, Saul went to Samuel himself and also prophesied (1 Samuel 19:18-24).

At Nob, Sister Leona fed Darien and outfitted him with Commander Soren’s sword. A shepherd informed Lawrence of Sister Leona’s said, and Lawrence sent the shepherd to kill the sisters at the convent. Anna escaped.
At Dorr, Ahimelech fed David and outfitted him with Goliath’s sword (1 Samuel 21:1-9). Doeg the Edomite, a shepherd, informed Saul of Ahimelech’s aid, and Saul sent Doeg to kill the priests. Abiathar escaped (1 Samuel 22:6-23).

Darien got to see his family, and 100 men including Colonel Oliver joined him.
David got to see his family, and 400 men joined him (1 Samuel 22:1-2).

After receiving confirmation from the Unseen One through Anna, Darien took the city of Kellen. As part of the plot, Darien pretended to be insane.
After receiving confirmation from the Lord, David took the city of Keilah (1 Samuel 23:1-6). At another location, Gath, David pretended to be insane (1 Samuel 21:10-15).

After taking Kellen, Darien left because he knew he would be handed over the Lawrence. On the journey away, Darien was visited by George, who still denied that Lawrence was out to get Darien. Lawrence cornered Darien at the Valley of the Rocks, but had to leave abruptly to address an unexpected Philistine attack.
After taking Keilah, David left because he knew he would be handed over the Saul. On the journey away, David was visited by Jonathan, who still denied that Saul was out to get David. Saul cornered David at the rock in the Desert of Maon, but had to leave abruptly to address an unexpected Palatian attack (1 Samuel 23:7-29).

Darien spared Lawrence’s life on the train, but took his medallion. Lawrence was regretful after the occasion.
David spared Saul’s life in a cave, but cut off a corner of his robe (1 Samuel 24). David spared Saul’s life again in the Desert of Ziph, but took a spear and water jug near Saul’s head. Saul was regretful after both occasions (1 Samuel 26).

Lawrence disguised himself and went with General Liddell to Anastasia. Lawrence forced the witch to bring up the Old Judge, who told Lawrence that he would be handed over because of his disobedience.
Saul disguised himself and went with two men to the witch of Endor. Saul forced the witch to bring up Samuel, who told Saul that he would be handed over because of his disobedience (1 Samuel 28).

When Lawrence was about to be killed by him enemies, he asked Kyle to kill him. When Kyle refused, Lawrence committed suicide by shooting himself in the head.
When Saul was about to be killed by him enemies, he asked his armor bearer to kill him. When the armor bearer refused, Saul committed suicide by falling on his own sword (1 Samuel 31).

Other Parallels?
George trying to reason with Lawrence.
Darien and George being great friends.
Darien agreed to protect the Adrian Baron Orkzy, but Darien stopped the transport of the new cannons to the Palatians.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:04 pm
by Laura Ingalls
Wow, good write-up, Taq! I enjoyed it. \:D/

I too enjoyed the spiritual journey of Kyle and Anna. I liked how Anna told Kyle that they needed to believe and trust in the Unseen One even if the spectacular gifts had stopped. It is hard sometimes to just go about the daily humdrum tasks, simply serving God with no flashiness or recognition, and Kyle portrayed that attitude well. I liked that they both seemed to recognize the parallels between the Unseen One and God when they came back, and still believed that they were chosen by Him here just like they had been in Marus.


Other parallels:

David played the harp
Darien played the piano

David came back from battle to singing joyous crowds
Darien came back from battle to cheering crowds, a band, etc.

David and his fighters left to fight in the war between the Philistines and Israelites. While gone, the Amalekites invaded Ziklag and took the women captive. David came back, and rescued the women while slaying the Amalekites.
Darien and his fighters left to fight in the war between the Palatians and Marutians. While gone, the Adrians invaded Lizah and took the civilians hostage. Darien came back, and rescued the hostages while slaying the Adrians.


Other notes:

I wonder where the Black Forest is in Odyssey? It also would be interesting to know who Kyle and Anna's grandparents were. :)

I enjoyed the prologue with Whit relaxing with hot tea by the fireplace on a snowy night. Good introduction. :yes:

Re: Manuscript 1: Darien's Rise

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:33 pm
by Chandler
Taq wrote:Darien agreed to protect the Adrian Baron Orkzy, but Darien stopped the transport of the new cannons to the Palatians.
I know this isn't Biblical, but there seems to be a connection here.

Re: Manuscript 1: Darien's Rise

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:31 pm
by Gandalf
Shawndlay wrote:
Taq wrote:Darien agreed to protect the Adrian Baron Orkzy, but Darien stopped the transport of the new cannons to the Palatians.
I know this isn't Biblical, but there seems to be a connection here.
I thought of her when I saw that too! Good to know McCusker has good tastes in reading!

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:18 pm
by KODY 105
I do not own the Passages books so I cannot participate in this discussion beyond Baroness Orczy.

I really like her book The Scarlet Pimpernel. The book I checked out of the library for a book report was very fancy and made me like it more. The story was good! The movie was a bit different from the book, but both are equally good. [/offtopic]

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:35 pm
by Ingress Neverwhere
When I have a sub job at the school I usually take along a book to read during my break times, which otherwise would be spent sitting boredly somewhere staring into space for twenty minutes. And it's not often that I take along a book that, if I have a chance to start it, I'm reluctant to put down and can't wait to pick up at my next break or after school.

Darien's Rise is one of those books.

The plot was captivating, but uncomplicated and easy enough to understand. I noted early on the parallels between the book and the story of David, Jonathan and Saul. I've tried reading Narnia before, but I was never able to get into Lion, Witch and the Wardrobe as well as I was able to get into Darien's Rise. In Narnia, the outcome of the adventure seemed to be solely placed on the shoulders of the Sons of Adam and Daughters of Eve. But in Darien's Rise, I got a sense that it was more about the faith journey of Anna and Kyle. They were there to help Darien ascend the throne of Marus, but they weren't expected to go out and lead armies or fight in any battles. They were kids, and aside from their powers were treated as such.

Even though I'm twenty-*cough* years old, I found myself identifying with both Anna and Kyle and their faith journey. I've only gotten back into my faith in the past couple of years, and aside from serving on my church's pastoral search committee I'm not entirely sure what I'm meant to do, with both it and the rest of my life. So the kids' uncertainty struck a chord with me.

Well, onto the next... *dives into Arin's Judgment*

-Kim

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:20 pm
by H Tide
I hadn't read the Passages series in a while, but I remembered the basic story lines and their Biblical counterparts. I just finished reading Darien's Rise, and I enjoyed Kyle and Anna's journey of faith. I especially appreciated the ending, which isn't your typical "happy ending" where everything is nicely wrapped up. The emphasis seemed to be more on what the kids would do with their faith in the real word, in Odyssey. I quite enjoyed the book and could relate to it very well. It certainly is not directed to kids only, as it explores the topic of faith and trust in God, which people of all age could relate to.

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:57 am
by Mrs Jason Whittaker
I'm not one of those devour-a-book-in-a-day kind of people, but when I picked up Darien's Rise I expected to be able to finish it in a night or two considering that it was a kid's book. I was pleasantly surprised to find that I couldn't finish it so quickly. The story and the writing style were captivating, yet were not so simple that I breezed through it.

I appreciated the Biblical parallelism. It didn't take long to figure out that Darien was David. I also appreciate that it wasn't one of the typical Bible stories chosen. This is one that is filled with struggle, internally and externally, and not really a happy ending. Yes, David becomes king, but only after the death of Saul and Jonathan--the Lord's annointed and his best friend.

It was nice to see that the story focused on the spiritual maturing of Anna and Kyle. Yes, we saw the Bible story in a new way, but we also saw two children changed by their involvement in it. This is one reason why I like the Imagination Station--you get to see how the story affects the participants.

Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 10:32 am
by Taq
I read 1 Samuel 27 this morning and found this parallel I formerly looked for and missed. I was originally thinking the parallel might be to the story of David, Nabal, and Abigail (1 Samuel 25), but we wouldn't have wanted Darien to have multiple wives. :noway:

Darien agreed to protect the Adrian Baron Orkzy. While Orkzy trusted him, Darien took the opportunity to stop the transport of the new cannons to the Palatians.
David agreed with Achish king of Gath to live in the Philistine land. While Achish trusted him, David took the opportunity to raid the Geshurites, Girzites, and Amalekites (1 Samuel 27).

Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:27 pm
by Trent DeWhite
Darien's Rise
by Paul McCusker

Summary: Rising out of obscurity into a position of prestige and power, a young man remains humble as he demonstrates abiding loyalty to his king. Sound familiar? Maybe that's because it is! Except this tale has a twist involving two siblings from Odyssey. When Kyle and Anna find themselves inside the strange and mystical land of Marus, they are initially incredulous of their surroundings. With swords and pistols being brandished as modern weaponry, the two children seem to have been transported a couple centuries back into the past. However, they aren't just any normal strangers to Marus; it appears they have both been called for a purpose. As the plot unfolds, Kyle and Anna find themselves on two different paths. Yet by the end of it all, they both learn valuable lessons that will stick with them for a lifetime.

Review: I had the "advantage" of reading 1 Samuel at the same time, so I was constantly making comparisons as I read Darien's Rise. One of the things which stood out to me was the tale of David and Goliath retold as Darien and Soren. It's one of the most well-known Bible stories and has even morphed into one of the most commonly used themes in film and literature - "overcoming the giants in your life." I'd heard the story so many times I'd never really given it a second thought. Until I read it again in Darien's Rise. David used a pebble and slingshot to kill Goliath. What an incredible demonstration of faith! How it must frustrate our Lord when we gripe and complain about our difficulties. We so quickly forget that us plus Jesus equals a majority! I've heard it said before that we need to stop telling God how big our mountains are and start telling our mountains how big our God is. That's what Darien did. Amidst relentless persecution from the very person he swore to protect, Darien remained steadfast in his faith.

Another person who never wavered was Anna, the one called by the Unseen One to be a prophetic voice. She believed the Unseen One would protect her and Kyle - even when it seemed like the odds were stacked up against them. Much like Darien, Anna gradually grew into spiritual maturity by stepping into and then exercising faith. Kyle, on the other hand, never fully accepted his calling and instead began to allow pride to get in the way. His actions mirrored that of King Lawrence, who glorified himself instead of the Unseen One. In a way, it was fitting that they both met their doom in the Valley of the Rocks. As the Palatian soldiers closed in them, Kyle and Lawrence each recognized that the cause of their impending demise was lack of faith. Furthermore, they both lacked humility. Kyle wanted to be the hero and Lawrence wanted to remain king. But as Luke 14:11 reminds, "Those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted."

I especially enjoy how Paul McCusker's Passages series, which is essentially a contemporary version of C.S. Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia, creates an environment in which the Unseen One is so tangibly real and alive. As Christians, we often forget that God is real and alive in our own world. The problem isn't that He isn't doing anything - the problem is that we aren't paying enough attention! Like Kyle and Anna discovered, we too have a specific and unique purpose in life. Our responsibility is to pursue Christ so that he will reveal his good and perfect will to us. Are we up for the challenge?

Rating: 4 out of 5

Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:51 pm
by Taq
Trent DeWhite wrote:The problem isn't that He isn't doing anything - the problem is that we aren't paying enough attention!
Amen! I know I've felt before that God's not speaking, but the problem's usually solved when I open the Bible and wait on God.

Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 5:26 pm
by 31899
I thought he did a really good job of kidifying (to barrow the colloquialism) The books of Samuel. I found it much more pleasant to read.

31899

Darien's rise

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:07 am
by Casey Doyle
I really enjoyed Darien's Rise. Paul McCusker did a great job with this series. I really enjoyed all the Biblical correlations. It inspired me to read I Samuel - II Chronicles in under 3 days. I can't wait to read along with the Adventures in Odyssey adaptation of it again. :D

Re:

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:43 pm
by profg11
Laura Ingalls wrote:Wow, good write-up, Taq! I enjoyed it. \:D/

Other parallels:

David played the harp
Darien played the piano

David came back from battle to singing joyous crowds
Darien came back from battle to cheering crowds, a band, etc.

David and his fighters left to fight in the war between the Philistines and Israelites. While gone, the Amalekites invaded Ziklag and took the women captive. David came back, and rescued the women while slaying the Amalekites.
Darien and his fighters left to fight in the war between the Palatians and Marutians. While gone, the Adrians invaded Lizah and took the civilians hostage. Darien came back, and rescued the hostages while slaying the Adrians.


Other notes:

I wonder where the Black Forest is in Odyssey? It also would be interesting to know who Kyle and Anna's grandparents were. :)

I enjoyed the prologue with Whit relaxing with hot tea by the fireplace on a snowy night. Good introduction. :yes:

Those are good parallels also - ones I did not know about...

i 2 wonder where the Black Forest is in Odyssey....

Re: Manuscript 1: Darien's Rise

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:47 am
by Catspaw
I meant to read and review this book much earlier, but hey, better late than never. ;)

I've read the whole Passages series before, but not recently. Darien's Rise is a great book that can be read by a variety of ages - reading it at an older age made me appreciate some themes and elements more deeply than I did when I first read it years ago, but when I read it when I was younger, I enjoyed it and learned from it as well. I can't remember if my mom ever read any of these, but the next time she's looking for a good book (she likes to get recommendations from my sister and I, since we read more and can sort out the inferior stuff ;) ) I should tell her to read the Passages series, starting with Darien's Rise! My dad would enjoy it as well. That's one of the many things that I love about Paul McCusker - he can write in such a way that people of all ages can enjoy the book and not feel like it's too far above or below them. It isn't a kids book - it's just a book that can be appreciated by a younger audience, as well as an older one.

There were multiple lines that jumped out at me as I was reading, and I definitely had more moments of conviction than I was expecting! ;) It doesn't have to be complex to be fundamentally true for our lives. So many truths that are in this book (coming from the Bible, of course) seem basic, but, as the story shows, living them out is the hard part. I really liked how Kyle basically failed in Marus at the end, but could admit it when he was back in Odyssey and learned from it. The story ends, and it left me wanting more, but it allows our imaginations to fill in some pieces. Do Kyle and Anna grow closer as siblings after their trip to Marus? Do they work out what they were chosen for and bless others with their lives? I have no doubt that if there was a tell-all epilogue, there would be tales of great achievements in the name of Christ...and some failures that were learned from. That's what we all strive for, right? To live our lives as best we can, wanting them to be pleasing to God, and being thankful for the grace that is offered us when, as we humans inevitably do, we stumble along the way. That's a timeless lesson that anybody of any age can learn from.

I can't wait to hear the audio version of this story - I'm sure that it will be great! :D There's a lot of good stuff to work with, obviously - Paul McCusker is amazing! \:D/

On a sappy note, I even thought of the ToO while I was reading! \:D/ Darien says, "But they don't understand that it's the people who make a nation great, not the land." I thought of how it's the people on the ToO that make it so great! :D Random, I know.

Re: Manuscript 1: Darien's Rise

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:50 am
by Sapphire
I have never read it so I cannot post my thoughts, but I am excited about it coming on the radio soon! :D

Re: Manuscript 1: Darien's Rise

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:20 am
by Danielle Abigail Maxwell
I read the book at the beginning of the summer, and lent it to a friend... sad to say, I have yet to get it back, but... better late than never for reviewing?

The book was amazing. At first, I couldn't tell which Biblical story is paralleled. It finally dawned on me when I got to about the part where Darien and George talk on the shooting range. Reminded me of David and Jonathan. And then I thought of an Odyssey episode with Isaac and how David and Jonathan were best friends. I've always find that story beautiful and something I would want. But in this world? Its hard to find, truly.

The characters slowly came out. Darien as David, Lawrence as Saul, George as Jonathan... but not every character fit a biblical one. Until I read this thread, I had no clue Commander Sorren was Goliath. The setting wasn't perfect for me to understand. I know there is always an underlying to each parallel, but wow... It didn't strike me as who is was supposed to be. And still, not every character fit a biblical one. AKA: Kyle and Anna.

Kyle seemed hard-headed at times. He just wanted to get home and even though he was helpful to Darien, he just didn't seem to fit in the crowd. For being a young boy, I can understand in the setting of older men not finding a place. But... something told me there was more to Kyle. My wish came true.
Kyle irked me the minute he headed for Anastasia's. Why? Yeah, you want to get home, but... but... ugh. I would have stayed five hundred feet away and run as fast I could have if I heard even a squeak. I'm particular, yes.

Kyle wasn't my favorite character. I mostly liked Darien. (I've read so much up on David these days.... I've almost started calling him Darien). But another interesting, and very spiritually led character was Anna.

Anna was my second favorite. While she just went with the flow apart from her sometimes ever-scary visions, she also took in what everyone said and considered it. That's the main reason I liked her so much. She became a believer so fast, and when she finally found her brother again, she was there for him... even when she discouraged him from going to Anastasia (without knowing it was her). She was a sweet girl. :)

Darien was everything I could have thought of... and more. Sometimes I thought he was a little too open or curious with Kyle, and later Anna, but... he wasn't bad.

I wouldn't change the book for anything... It was pretty good. And out of the four Passages books I've read, Darien's Rise still tops. :)

Re: Manuscript 1: Darien's Rise

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:12 am
by LizzieG
I finally reread Darien's Rise! \:D/ First book I've finished in over a month. :anxious:

I hadn't read Darien's Rise in years, and was initially re-introduced to the book not by sitting down and reading through it, but by reading some of the scripts out of order and scanning the book from back to front, looking for details on some of the locations in the Passages world. So on a cursory level I became re-familiar with the characters and places, but my sense of the finer points of the plot - not to mention some of the biblical parallels - remained somewhat muddled.

Backtracking even more, when I first read the Passages books, I read the first two out of order. I remember being awed by Arin's Judgment, and having no idea the story was supposed to be a biblical parallel until at least halfway through the book. Then, when I started Darien's Rise, I immediately identified the Darien/David connection, and was disappointed. In the second book, I had been on the edge of my seat, not knowing what was going to happen. Now, I knew exactly what was coming next.

As I prepared to reread Darien's Rise, I thought of my earlier disappointment and expected a predictable story without much pizzazz. I was pleasantly surprised, however, by how much I enjoyed it! Even though I knew it was the story of David, even though I had many and varied pieces of the story floating through my head as a result of my involvement with it this summer, it still managed to be fresh and impacting. The books had many descriptions and details that the scripts, necessarily, didn't have. But whereas scripts are meant to be heard, books are meant to be read, and it was refreshing to be finally reading this better-than-expected book.

From the outset, the story seems simple and the descriptions, light. Seems is the key word. The simple form and style masks a hidden depth, and the descriptions, though not long or complex, weren't cliched or predictable either. Each word was used to its full potential, and, when put together, made me feel as if I were actually there. My imagination was captured early on, with the descriptions of the house in the middle of the woods, and Kyle and Anna's entries into Marus, and I was often struck by the poignancy of a certain "word picture" or analogy.

The other-world setting was of course intriguing too, and I enjoyed the juxtaposition of late 19th-century clothes and settings with the more modern cars and telephones. It definitely wasn't a world I had seen before. ;)

As far as the story itself, I especially enjoyed the focus on Kyle and Anna, and their personal journeys, roles, and perspectives on Marus and the Unseen One. I was especially struck by this line, spoken by the Old Judge: "All things begin with the Unseen One. We could not have faith unless the Unseen One first gave us the capacity for faith. We believe because He makes it possible to believe. Once we believe, then it's safe to assume we are chosen. Chosen for what is part of the mystery. But know this: Where there is faith, there is calling." Because of where I'm at right now, what with not knowing what the future holds or what I have been called to do, this particularly resonated with me.

I had forgotten about some of the biblical parallels - most notably Baron Orkzy, Lizah, and the sabotaging of the cannons - so it was enjoyable to see the story of David creatively Passages-ized. The characters were very similar to their biblical counterparts, but the very different setting, and, of course, the inclusion of Kyle and Anna, gave it a freshness while at the same time making me want to reread the biblical account. In addition to noting many of the biblical parallels, I also picked up on a couple differences between the story of David and the story of Darien:
  • David actually did marry Michal; Darien and Michelle's wedding never happened.
  • Samuel never told David to go to Nob, nor to withhold from the priests the purpose of his travels; the Old Judge did instruct Darien to stop at Dorr, but not to "explain to her [Sister Leona] why you're traveling." I'm curious as to why the Old Judge would give him that instruction, as it caused Darien to mislead the sisters, and, thus, resulted in their being caught unawares by King Lawrence's accusations. It doesn't seem as if he knew what would happen at the convent... so why that "important" instruction? :-k
Darien's Rise is very different from most of the books I usually read (classics), but it succeeded in capturing my interest and attention, even though I'm outside of the target age range. Now I'm curious about the rest of the series, and wondering how accurate my remembered perceptions of each book are.

Re: Manuscript 1: Darien's Rise

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:38 pm
by Taq
LizzieG wrote:In addition to noting many of the biblical parallels, I also picked up on a couple differences between the story of David and the story of Darien:
  • David actually did marry Michal; Darien and Michelle's wedding never happened.
  • Samuel never told David to go to Nob, nor to withhold from the priests the purpose of his travels; the Old Judge did instruct Darien to stop at Dorr, but not to "explain to her [Sister Leona] why you're traveling." I'm curious as to why the Old Judge would give him that instruction, as it caused Darien to mislead the sisters, and, thus, resulted in their being caught unawares by King Lawrence's accusations. It doesn't seem as if he knew what would happen at the convent... so why that "important" instruction? :-k
A differences list - how novel! Sure, I noticed the one in your first bullet point, but I was so intent on sniffing out similarities when reading that I didn't think too much about other differences.