This Needs to Stop! (PETITION)

[Steve]

I think that we should just petition to get FOTF and FAIO to hide the URLs of episodes better. Ten we aren't doing stuff wrong, and we don't have to worry about illegal downloads. So why don't we fix the problems at their sources. (Yes. I am saying the FOTF is one of the problems.)

[bookworm]

I never called for the site's removal that I recall

I didn’t mean you specifically, I meant the others who did, using your same reason.

but I do think that their site is really on the ethical edge, since they make it really easy to do something like download tons of episodes

And my point still stands that so does whitsend.org.

I think that we should just petition to get FOTF and FAIO to hide the URLs of episodes better.

But that wouldn’t change anything. You don’t need the URL to download a stream if you know what you’re doing.
If your argument is that the site is wrong because they make it possible to download, then the issue isn’t that they don’t hide enough, it’s that they play any episodes at all.

[Dallas R.]

I can now say I'm at the brunt of this copyright stuff myself. I don't know if anyone remembers my "Whit Talking To Whit and Whit" video, and my less popular "Bart Talking to Bart" video, but it appears Focus on the Family has a filed a You Tube copyright infringement on me for the videos. I sort of find it odd that these videos were found offensive. I know they include copyrighted material owned by Focus, but I wasn't including full episodes or anything to hinder people from buying the real show, they way FAIO does.

If Focus filed the complaint, I'm more than willing to keep them off of Youtube. The last thing I want is to hurt them. I still would like to attempt to explain the situation and see if they will allow me to put them back up though. I figured here was as good a place as any to find out the best way to contact them about all of this. I know that Nathan doesn't check this site very often. Should I email him? Would someone else be better? If anyone could PM me an email or something that would help, I'd really appreciate it.

[Sean Regan]

That's bizarre. I've seen your videos and I can't imagine what they could find objectionable about it.

[Bob]

Well, anything that the company hasn't officially released (such as previews, teasers, etc.) technically does qualify as copyright infringement... if the video only included scenes that they've released as teasers, or if it was about an episode they've already released for free, I don't think they'd have as much of a case (or as much of a problem with it).

[Sean Regan]

Yes, but when the clips are that short, most companies would ignore that and hope it would work as free advertisement. Either a well-meaning but slow-thinking fan or short-sighted FotF employee reported it, no doubt.

[Leonard Meltsner]

I loved those videos, and can't imagine why FOTF would have an issue. The longest any of those clips were was probably 6 seconds, all the way down to 1 second. There's nothing there that's really infringing on copyright issues imo...

[Dallas R.]

As Bob pointed out, I do realize that the videos technically were a copyright infringement, and I fully understand that Focus on the Family has the legal right to have me remove them. But it really did seem a bit odd. I wonder if they would be more okay with it if I included pop-up links to the Whit's End website and Focus on the Family Store, stating that my material was not my own, and that it is not an officially sponsored video.

[Peachey Keen]

I am not suggesting anything that is in the least outrageous. It wasn’t even my suggestion, it was yours.

Um, it was your idea.

By that argument we must also insist that whitsend.org be shut down because they make episodes available to be downloaded by unscrupulous users. And they don’t even have a warning like FAIO does.

And Steve's.

Yes, AIO Wiki and the Scoop should probably go too! They have links to episodes available for free download and to the FOTF media player. Well, thank you guys for shutting down every single Odyssey website! And since this will put Odyssey out of business, let's take this site down too!

And my comment about making sure of the facts, that was directed at Steve. Sorry about not clarifying.

[manfrednissley]

Here is my stance on FAIO.
To start off with lets take a look at what FOM says.
http://www.focusonthefamily.com/about_u ... olicy.aspx

Restrictions on Use of Our Online Materials

All materials contained in the Focus on the Family Web sites ("Online Material") are the copyrighted property of Focus on the Family. All trademarks, service marks, and trade names are proprietary to Focus on the Family. No Online Material from our Web sites may be copied, reproduced, republished, uploaded, posted, transmitted, or distributed in any way, except that you may download one copy of the materials on any single computer for your personal, noncommercial home use only, provided that you 1) retain all copyright, trademark and propriety notices, 2) you make no modifications to the materials, 3) you do not use the materials in a manner that suggests an association with any of our products, services, events or brands, and 4) you do not download quantities of materials to a database, server, or personal computer for reuse for commercial purposes. You may not, however, copy, reproduce, republish, upload, post, transmit or distribute our Online Material in any way or for any other purpose unless you get our written permission first. Neither may you add, delete, distort or misrepresent any content on the Focus on the Family sites. Any attempts to modify any Online Material, or to defeat or circumvent our security features is prohibited.

Everything you download, any software, plus all files, all images incorporated in or generated by the software, and all data accompanying it, is considered licensed to you by Focus on the Family or third-party licensors for your personal, non-commercial home use only. We do not transfer title of the software to you. That means that we retain full and complete title to the software and to all of the associated intellectual-property rights. You're not allowed to redistribute or sell the material or to reverse-engineer, disassemble or otherwise convert it to any other form that people can use.

Boldface tags fixed. -snubs


Now lets consider how focus on the family makes money.

Are they for profit or not for profit

At Focus on the Family, we recognize that our finances are donations sent by loving people who have sacrificed to make their gifts possible. Our obligation, therefore, is to spend that money conservatively and wisely in continuing the ministry.

Thus it would be legal to download all of the episodes and give them 1 penny. They would have no recourse.

I saw someone mentioned something about how FAIO had the Green Ring stuff up. What this person does not realize is that those episodes were streamed directly from AIO itself!

-- Sat Aug 13, 2011 10:39 am --

I also would like to see this site goes down, the site itself isn't really illegal, but it makes it very easy to find episodes that have been uploaded illegally (anything not on FOTF servers was illegally uploaded, that includes things like grooveshark and youtube). some of these it even makes it very download them directly to your computer if you just look at the source code for the page.

When i created the audio player for the wiki (http://www.aiowiki.com/wiki/Audio_Player) I was very carefully to make it so that there is no way to download the episodes for free and that episodes don't stick around for longer than the month that the official player keeps theirs up for.

ALso FAIO does make money from the site, they have ads posted and make a fair chunk of change from them (>$100/month).

um, actually I can download those. There is an app for my browser that can download them.

[bookworm]

Well, anything that the company hasn't officially released (such as previews, teasers, etc.) technically does qualify as copyright infringement

As Bob pointed out, I do realize that the videos technically were a copyright infringement, and I fully understand that Focus on the Family has the legal right to have me remove them.

Not true. It is a common misconception that a copyright prohibits any use of copyrighted material whatsoever. In actuality, it protects against use as is.
I haven’t seen the video you speak of, so I can’t be sure, but from the description I believe it was definitely fair use. I assume you used small clips of audio to make a humorous discussion? If so, that should be legal. Parody falls under criticism, which is exempt from copyright law.

Um, it was your idea. ... And Steve's.

No, it was yours.

I signed!! I know people think it's no big deal. The webmaster of FAIO is just linking to other peoples uploads, but lots of people still download from it. It's just like how people used to see baseball games. The people that didn't buy tickets, they looked through knotholes in the fence. More people saw the game, but the people on the teams, agents, or whoever lost money because of those who didn't pay to get in.

Your argument was that FAIO is wrong because it’s like the holes allowing people to get episodes for free. Following through with that logic, whitsend.org is just as wrong, because they do the same thing.

[snubs]

I'm not going to comment on any of the above posts...because it's a waste of time.


On another note, I think it would be cool if Focus did what they do with songs... meaning you can buy individual episodes. They could do it on Amazon or straight from their website. By the way, do they already do this?

[Dallas R.]

Well, anything that the company hasn't officially released (such as previews, teasers, etc.) technically does qualify as copyright infringement

As Bob pointed out, I do realize that the videos technically were a copyright infringement, and I fully understand that Focus on the Family has the legal right to have me remove them.

Not true. It is a common misconception that a copyright prohibits any use of copyrighted material whatsoever. In actuality, it protects against use as is.
I haven’t seen the video you speak of, so I can’t be sure, but from the description I believe it was definitely fair use. I assume you used small clips of audio to make a humorous discussion? If so, that should be legal. Parody falls under criticism, which is exempt from copyright law.

Good to know. And yes, you've got the basic idea of the videos. I put together clips of all three actors who have played Whit and put them together so that they would have a conversation. Same with both actors who have played Bart Rathbone. I'd say no clip is longer than six or seven seconds.

[Leonard Meltsner]

The video is even more amazing in light of the fact that Andre had only been Whit for Darien's Rise when it was made, so that was all there was to work with! Same with the second Bart, having only one episode (Suspicious Finds)!

[Shadowfax]

I didn't feel like reading all 6 pages of this topic, or even the long post at the beginning (sorry, AE ). But free AIO online? I've been looking for this ever since I was a fan. This is a gold mine, people! Don't sign the petition!

[AIOCREFan]

I didn't feel like reading all 6 pages of this topic, or even the long post at the beginning (sorry, AE ). But free AIO online? I've been looking for this ever since I was a fan. This is a gold mine, people! Don't sign the petition!

That's why you should have read at least AE and Catspaw's posts. For any newcomer's, I shall post.

...you thought this topic was more "I hate the new Odyssey!" griping, didn't you?

Well, it's not. This topic is about "FAIO", or "FREE Adventures in Odyssey". I have wanted to bring this topic up in the past, but decided not to because that potentially could cause more traffic for the site. I was incredibly ticked off at the site during the weekly releases of The Green Ring Conspiracy, but decided to wait for the right time to start this discussion.

FAIO is a fansite that links to hundreds (count 'em, HUNDREDS) of Odyssey episodes available online. At one point, I believe they had every episode (aside from the hard-to-find ones). Focus on the Family has removed many of them, but FAIO is relentless in its search for more illegally uploaded episodes. The homepage boasts, "We currently have over 460 full episodes."

My brother and I purchased The Green Ring Conspiracy as a digital download, along with many other fans who just couldn't wait. Before the episodes were released on the radio, someone uploaded them all to YouTube, and FAIO proudly announced the uploading. I was so frustrated to see like 2,000 people had listened to each episode! Think of all the money FOTF is losing!

Here we are. Clanging Cymbols is preparing for release. Undoubably, it will be uploaded to YouTube, Grooveshark or another place, FAIO will share it with its followers, and many thousands of dollars will be lost. FOTF won't last forever, friends.

...so, what can we do? If you're part of this website, I beg of you to leave it. Take a stand. Do the right thing.

Perhaps we could petition the owner of the site to close it down? Am I the other one bothered here?

Edit: Sign the Petition!

I'm with AE on this one. We're so used to free everything that we sometimes forget that it costs money to produce AIO. The best way to say that we want them to continue to make it is to buy the product. I own all the albums (most of them on both tape and CD, for the ones from before they only released them on CD), so I know that I'm in a fortunate position in that I can listen to any episode any time without a site like that, but isn't one's conscience worth something? (i.e. a lot?) Would you walk into a bookstore, steal a Bible, and then justify it by saying that everybody should have free access to the word of God? Would you walk into your local Christian bookstore, steal an album of AIO, and smile and feel good about it? I know that not every person who listens on illegal sites would pay for the product, but does that justify anything? Picture yourself talking to God...or actually pray right now! Do you think God would accept the excuse of, "Well, I know I stole it, but lots of people do it. And I didn't really want to pay money for it. And hey, FOTF must have lots of money, being a not-for-profit Christian organization and all..." Like AE, this really bothers me. By using such a site (and posts like Taps indicate that there are people who use this FAIO site extensively, and if somebody is willing to download the complete collection, surely they must be a big enough fan to commit a few dollars) people are taking away from what makes AIO possible. That's not okay with me.

My opinion is that if you have money to buy movies or see movies in the theatre, or go to Starbucks, or any other non-essential thing that a lot of people do, then you have money to get AIO legitimately. Don't suppress your conscience and pretend that because you're listening to something good, God won't care that you're stealing it. All my albums when I was a kid came as Christmas and birthday presents. For years I've worked and have bought my own albums. Whatever place you're at in life, I think there will be a way to get episodes without ripping off FOTF. Maybe not all at once or exactly when you want them, but it will be worth it to do things the right way.

Psalm 19:13 - "Keep me from deliberate sins! Don't let them control me. Then I will be free of guilt and innocent of great sin." Maybe you listened unethically but didn't really think about it. Maybe you didn't realize it was wrong, or didn't want to admit it was wrong. Maybe God used AE's thread to convict you today. Like David, let your heart's cry be, "Keep me from deliberate sins!" God is a good God to warn us and offer correction. To be "free of guilt and innocent of great sin" sounds like a tremendous gift. Don't let lies get in the way of a clean conscience and drawing closer to God.

Thank you Catspaw, for that wonderful post, and AE, for addressing the subject. I'm absolutely appalled at what this site does, and to quote Tom, "would tear it down with my bare hands"! This is not only STEALING from Focus, but it's STEALING FROM GOD'S WORK. There is no justification for this. This can in no way be classified as a "Right, right". This is the very time when Focus needs our support the most! I don't know if any of you have seen the commercial for Focus on FB, or anywhere else asking for donations. If I remember correctly, they are so behind in giving that they're trying to collect 4 MILLION DOLLARS by the end of the summer to continue their different ministries. It's exactly sites like FAIO that have caused this travesty! Rise up ToOers!!! DESTROY NOVA... err.... FAIO!!!!

Please people, sign the petition. Hopefully, it will get FAIO's owners thinking.

Sign the Petition!

[AlexMitchell]

True, Sean, you caught me with that "always." But I figured we were edging into ethical discussion grounds anyway and the petition seemed like a pretty good chance to talk about an issue we all face.

[Jason Whits Son]

This was just posted in the blog of faio:

The Worst Has Happened
Posted by Faio Admin on August 14, 2011 at 5:55 PM

In October of 2010, Focus on the Family "cleaned out" their servers. The same servers that Faio gets it's episodes from.


It has happened again.


Although I have not yet begun to go through all the links, I assume we lost most of our collection. I will post in the future with a status report.

Please do not report any links at this time, unless they are from known sources, such as Grooveshark or Youtube.

[Leonard Meltsner]

This was just posted in the blog of faio:

The Worst Has Happened
Posted by Faio Admin on August 14, 2011 at 5:55 PM

In October of 2010, Focus on the Family "cleaned out" their servers. The same servers that Faio gets it's episodes from.


It has happened again.


Although I have not yet begun to go through all the links, I assume we lost most of our collection. I will post in the future with a status report.

Please do not report any links at this time, unless they are from known sources, such as Grooveshark or Youtube.

YESSSS!!!!!

[The Top Crusader]

Yay for FOTF network administrator doing their job.