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 Post Post subject: Re: Marvel's Avengers: ******* April 26th 2019
Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:39 pm 
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I got caught up on the other movies while this was still playing near me, so I went out to see it in the theater. I figured if there ever was one to experience in its original release window this is definitely it, the ultimate culmination of everything. It's a huge event! And I've seen so many of these after the fact since I'm a latecomer to the series that I felt I owed it to them to do my part helping this pass Avatar if it's going to. (This was just before it was announced there would be a rerelase.)

Even though I was still pretty late, culturally speaking, to see it I had absolutely no idea what was going to happen or what to expect. I had previously accepted there was a good likelihood that as is usual it could be several months until I got around to it, so I was moderately trying to avoid spoilers but didn't really care if some got through; but none actually did so that was cool. All I knew was Spider-Man and Black Panther were coming back somehow, because they have new movies coming, and the Spider-Man trailer played before this started and had Nick Fury in it so I knew he was back too. But I had no idea about the details of anything that was going to happen.


It was so good! So good. This movie is truly an unparalleled accomplishment. There is nothing to compare this to. After 11 years and 22 movies, bringing every character together - truly every one, the final battle was insane! - and bringing every storyline closure, and nailing all of it. All the kudos to everyone that had a hand in creating this over the years.
I didn't expect it to be a massive time jump since Infinity War, that was gutsy decision for the story, but it worked. And it was interesting to see how the world dealt with what had happened.

The jumping through the other movies was crazy. I can't believe they not just made it work, but used it to give every character some perfect closure moment. Tony meeting his dad was a particularly impactful scene.

Tony dying didn't surprise me, yet still really affected me. He was a prime candidate for a character to be phased out here, I expected it, but the way it was done was truly perfect. In the meta world, all this started with him and he's been the throughline for the MCU's success, it's only fitting that he's the one that ultimately saves the day here and moves us into the new era. But in story it's just as perfect, this is the ultimate conclusion of his story arc. He has come from a character that only cared about himself all the way to making this sacrifice for his new family and the rest of the world.

The cheeseburger callback at Tony's funeral; wow. Bringing things all the way back to the very first movie, and making what was originally an eye rolling product placement throwaway moment into something legitimately emotional over ten years later? Amazing.

Cap with Mjölnir was just great.

The only thing I didn't like was that moment in the big battle when all of a sudden every single female character, and only the female characters, were inexplicably in the same place after what they had all been doing all over the place and led a charge together. That was so dumb; not necessarily as an idea, but definitely in how it was done. Unbelievably heavy handed, a black mark on the writing which was otherwise really good. When you do something that is blatantly obvious that it's done solely to have a 'girl power' moment then it's not a girl power moment because all people will see it as is a politically correct we have to force this in here so people will think it's so great that we did it thing.

Wow, Cap didn't die! That was a real shocker to me. I wasn't wrong about him though, my belief was that he would exit the franchise one way or another, I just said death before because I didn't think there were any other possibilities. This was great though, actually going out with a happy ending that brings together his entire story.

Also very surprising to me: Natasha. When it had to be either her or Hawkeye to die I knew it would be her; I get why he thought he had to be the one, but I knew he wouldn't be because he was going to get his family back. But going in I never would have expected her to be exiting because I thought they were still wanting to make a Black Widow movie at some point. Though I guess it could be set in the past now that I think about it.

What's up with no end credit tag in the ultimate culmination movie? That's ridiculous. I get that the movie ended where they wanted to leave us so some additional scene wouldn't feel right, but at least put a "Thank you for all the years of support!" text card to the fans right?


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 Post Post subject: Re: Marvel's Avengers: ******* April 26th 2019
Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:53 pm 
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Endgame is goos, but it has too many plot holes. Infinity War is better.

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 Post Post subject: Re: Marvel's Avengers: ******* April 26th 2019
Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:28 am 
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Monty_Whittaker wrote:
Endgame is goos, but it has too many plot holes. Infinity War is better.

I agree that Infinity War is better, but not because of plot holes. What plot holes did you see in Endgame?


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 Post Post subject: Re: Marvel's Avengers: ******* April 26th 2019
Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:34 pm 
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The time travel makes absolutely zero sense, especially since according to the rules they established, they could have totally saved Natasha and Tony because it would create an alternate timeline. Heck, why didn't strange use the Time Stone to save Tony? It simply makes zero sense, they could have gone traditional time travel and it would make way more sense.

Also how the heck did Cap end up in the same time that he left from? It has been established that time travel creates alternate timelines. It makes no sense.

Also why didn't they simply steal the stones from sneak-attacking Thanos when he has them all? It could definitely work.

I could go on, but this should suffice.

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 Post Post subject: Re: Marvel's Avengers: ******* April 26th 2019
Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:02 pm 
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Monty_Whittaker wrote:
The time travel makes absolutely zero sense...
It helps when you think in terms of the Imagination Station: contained realities. Although, it seems like you understand it pretty well.
Monty_Whittaker wrote:
...especially since according to the rules they established, they could have totally saved Natasha and Tony because it would create an alternate timeline.
With Natasha, she can't come back. Even with time travel, the Soul Stone would prevent her return. Notice that even though Gamora returned with 2014 Thanos, Quill couldn't find her on his scanner, so something happened to her. "It can't be undone," Clint says, and I'm inclined to believe him.
Also, those alternate, branched timelines would be destined for destruction without Natasha or Tony. Both were key players throughout Endgame, and removing them from their timelines (without returning them) would mean destruction for those timelines. Remember that all the alternate timelines were fixed, all the "branches" "clipped."
Monty_Whittaker wrote:
...why didn't strange use the Time Stone to save Tony?
Tony is a genius. He singlehandedly, with slight assistance from Scott Lang, developed a time travel device. He created Jarvis, Ultron, Friday, Edith, and so on. He built the arc reactor ("In a cave! With a box of scraps!" :) ). One of Tony's only shortcomings is that he's impetuous. He doesn't think things through, even with the admonishment of his friends. If Tony survived the snap, there is a very high chance that he would use the time travel technology for what he would perceive as a good purpose, or, worse, use the Infinity Stones again before returning them. As we saw with Ultron, when Tony acts rashly, things go wrong. And if he survived, something going wrong is incredibly likely. Not only that, it is guaranteed.
Here's why. This applies to the explanations for Nat's and Tony's deaths as well. When Dr. Strange viewed every possible future, every scenario that plays out differently than Endgame did results in Thanos winning. So if Nat were resurrected, Thanos would eventually win. If Tony were revived, Thanos would eventually win. There are examples of how these scenarios could happen, and since Dr. Strange has already seen every "What If" and "Why Not," we know that Endgame's outcome is the only safe one. It's not blind following, since we have reasoning of the bad things happening.
Monty_Whittaker wrote:
It simply makes zero sense, they could have gone traditional time travel and it would make way more sense.
Disagree. The Butterfly Effect paradoxes are ridiculous to wrap your mind around. Granted, Hulk could have explained it better, but it makes more than "zero" sense.
Monty_Whittaker wrote:
Also how the heck did Cap end up in the same time that he left from? It has been established that time travel creates alternate timelines.
The directors (who have the final word [more than the poor confused screenwriters]) have said that Steve traveled back from the alternate timeline he created to get to the main one. My best explanation is that there was another functioning time travel gateway that elderly Steve used moments after young Steve vanished. Then he just walked over to the bench and took a breather.
Monty_Whittaker wrote:
Also why didn't they simply steal the stones from sneak-attacking Thanos when he has them all? It could definitely work.
Not sure what you mean by that. Could you elaborate?
Monty_Whittaker wrote:
I could go on, but this should suffice.
Please go on! :pray: I want to explain more!


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 Post Post subject: Re: Marvel's Avengers: ******* April 26th 2019
Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:30 pm 
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I went to see the movie in theatres again today. I know that it's already out on digital and on DVD next week, but I always meant to go see it in theatres a second time and it never worked out, so when I realized that a theatre (kind of) nearby was still showing it, I decided to take my chance!

It was nice to go in knowing the major plot points, and I really enjoyed watching it again.
I enjoyed the chance to enjoy the character interactions a bit more, since I wasn't trying to figure out what was going on. There was a little boy a few rows behind me (much too young, in my opinion), with his grandma, who clearly knew nothing, so it was kind of funny sometimes as the six or seven year old would whisper to her about who a character was. When Peter and Tony hug, she asked if it was his son, which I thought was funny, but also a good question from somebody twenty movies behind. ;) Since I had seen the movie already the whispering didn't bother me, and he was so excited when Black Panther showed up, and even knew his name was T'Challa, which seemed pretty impressive!

Question: Did anyone else go see the movie while they were advertising bonus materials? At the the showing I was at, after the credits they showed a really nice tribute to Stan Lee with footage from his cameos, then showed one deleted scene with the Hulk helping at a fire scene (this must be a big disappointment to the Atlanta fire department, who were significantly featured in the scene that never made the movie), and then that was it. I was expecting more. Did anyone else see more, or were they just over-promoting the features?

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 Post Post subject: Re: Marvel's Avengers: ******* April 26th 2019
Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:11 pm 
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I went before they added the extra stuff, but I wouldn't have been disappointed because I knew what it was and wouldn't have expected anything major. (When I heard about the rerelease, right after I had finally gone to see it, I looked up what exactly was being added because I was like wait did I just miss out on an extended cut or something by mere days? Thankfully no I didn't.)


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 Post Post subject: Re: Marvel's Avengers: ******* April 26th 2019
Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:18 pm 
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I wasn't expecting an hour of material or anything, but just one deleted scene seemed odd. Oh well. No big loss. ;)

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 Post Post subject: Re: Marvel's Avengers: ******* April 26th 2019
Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:40 pm 
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Alright, time to pick apart endgame some more.
Why didn't Nebula leave? IT LITERALLY WAS EASILY POSSIBLE, if she had JUST activated the thing when they were taking her ship. Honestly that whole thing felt like an excuse to give us a huge final battle.
Why didn't they just attack Thanos in 2018 when he has ALL the stones before he destroyed them? It would have mad far more sense, specially since he didn't destroy them immediately. Just seems like the most logical option, specially since they would have easily beaten him.
Stuff like that just doesn't make senze, IMO.

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 Post Post subject: Re: Marvel's Avengers: ******* April 26th 2019
Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:18 am 
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I asked the same thing about going back to right before the snap in Wakanda. Or even post-snap. The reasoning, I think, is to not lose anyone, full power Thanos is something to be reckoned with and they didn’t want to redo that fight if they didn’t have to? What if he heard them coming and went ahead and snapped to destroy the stones, they had one shot with the pym particles (they thought at least) so there’s no way they’re going into something so risky.

With Nebula, I’m pretty sure she was monitored & remotely incapacitated, so she probably couldn’t even go near her time GPS without getting shocked.

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 Post Post subject: Re: Marvel's Avengers: ******* April 26th 2019
Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:12 pm 
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Thanos wouldn't be at full power if they followed right after the OG snap and then took him down, if anything he would be at his weakest. Plus, they have Ant-Man as well as a group of heroes that never fought thanos together. Plus, they could just have Thor go to Wakanda and aim for the head. Just never made sense to me IMO.

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 Post Post subject: Re: Marvel's Avengers: ******* April 26th 2019
Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:30 am 
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I’m not saying it makes complete sense but if I had to explain it, I think they still wanted to avoid Thanos for a higher chance of success. The only stone they had no clue about was the soul stone, so just grabbing them out of time could be thought of as easier than fighting Thanos for them. I think it can be explained by simple avoidance of conflict, these guys spent 5 years in defeat, I can imagine a certain unwillingness to redo the fight....kind of.

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 Post Post subject: Re: Marvel's Avengers: ******* April 26th 2019
Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:13 pm 
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Monty_Whittaker wrote:
Why didn't Nebula leave? IT LITERALLY WAS EASILY POSSIBLE, if she had JUST activated the thing when they were taking her ship.
EK wrote:
With Nebula, I’m pretty sure she was monitored & remotely incapacitated, so she probably couldn’t even go near her time GPS without getting shocked.
That's a good point, EK; I didn't think of that angle.
My explanation was that she missed the sync-up. Every other time one of the Avengers travels from an alternate timeline to the main one, the main time travel platform opens (it's called a "gateway"; Nebula uses it to bring Thanos to 2023). Since Nebula missed her chance to go back through the gateway (she was supposed to go with Rhodey), she had to wait until Clint and Natasha synced up to go back. But since Nat... died, and since old Nebula took over, the way to get back was a little different.
I'll admit that my explanation doesn't make complete sense; I like EK's better.
Monty_Whittaker wrote:
Honestly that whole thing felt like an excuse to give us a huge final battle.
That's one thing I will agree with you on, partially. Since Thanos was from the past, his decimation at the end of Endgame felt a little cheapened. This wasn't the Thanos we knew biting the dust, it was some other guy.

Monty_Whittaker wrote:
Why didn't they just attack Thanos in 2018 when he has ALL the stones before he destroyed them? It would have mad far more sense, specially since he didn't destroy them immediately. Just seems like the most logical option, specially since they would have easily beaten him.
EK wrote:
I asked the same thing about going back to right before the snap in Wakanda. Or even post-snap. The reasoning, I think, is to not lose anyone, full power Thanos is something to be reckoned with and they didn’t want to redo that fight if they didn’t have to? What if he heard them coming and went ahead and snapped to destroy the stones, they had one shot with the pym particles (they thought at least) so there’s no way they’re going into something so risky. [...] I’m not saying it makes complete sense but if I had to explain it, I think they still wanted to avoid Thanos for a higher chance of success. The only stone they had no clue about was the soul stone, so just grabbing them out of time could be thought of as easier than fighting Thanos for them. I think it can be explained by simple avoidance of conflict, these guys spent 5 years in defeat, I can imagine a certain unwillingness to redo the fight....kind of.
Monty_Whittaker wrote:
Plus, they could just have Thor go to Wakanda and aim for the head.
Let's talk about Thor.
Thor was already going through huge waves of guilt after the "OG" snap. While Stormbreaker is statistically more powerful than the full Infinity Gauntlet, Thor's ability to wield it would be impaired BECAUSE HE'S A STUPID, FAT DRUNK. If you notice Thor's battle tactics in the Endgame final battle, he does try to "go for the head" several times in his first shots, with both Stormbreaker and Mjolnir. Why doesn't he get the kill on Thanos those times? Because he's got cheese whiz coursing through his veins. He's "in no condition," to quote Tony.
Since Carol wasn't present for the Time Heist, and since Thor was incapacitated to the point where he did NO FIGHTING AT ALL in the Heist (okay, I'll stop now), the post-blip Avengers didn't have the upper hand when it came to fighting Thanos. Every possible outcome (there it is again) of ambushing Thanos from the moment he kills vision to the moment he destroys the stones ends with them losing.
And also, think about the way the Time Heist played out (or what the plan was): Banner convinces Tilda Swinton to give him the Time Stone (no fighting), Steve uses "Heil Hydra" to swipe the Mind Stone (no fighting), Tony and Scott nab the Space Stone while 2012 Tony's gagging on the floor (no fighting), Thor and Rocket pull the Reality Stone out of Natalie Portman (no fighting), Rhodey and Nebula extract the Power Stone from Morag (no fighting), and Clint and Nat go talk to Red Skull about the Soul Stone (again, no fighting). Compare no fighting at all in the plan to an all-out, one-sided rush against the most powerful villain of all time (lots of fighting). Basically what EK said about the chances of success.
Monty_Whittaker wrote:
Thanos wouldn't be at full power if they followed right after the OG snap and then took him down, if anything he would be at his weakest. Plus, they have Ant-Man as well as a group of heroes that never fought thanos together.
There's concept art for Infinity War of Thanos snapping while all the Wakanda Avengers (including Scarlet Witch) dog-pile him. Adding Tony, Nebula, and Scott to that mix wouldn't have made attacking him any easier. Thanos would still have snapped to destroy the stones; it was in his demented plan all along.


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 Post Post subject: Re: Marvel's Avengers: ******* April 26th 2019
Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:23 pm 
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Also, I rewatched Age of Ultron the other day and when Tony’s talking about threats from outer space (presumably the Chitauri) he points up to the sky and says something along the lines of “that up there, that’s the endgame.”

It’s always cool how they subtly tie things together.

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 Post Post subject: Re: Marvel's Avengers: ******* April 26th 2019
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:16 pm 
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Yeah, I noticed that a while ago too! It's in Ultron that we see all the Infinity Stones (briefly) too. I don't know to what extent some things are planned and other things are pulled together later (like did they really have the Endgame title planned out that far ahead?) but either way, the dedication to putting the threads together and making each movie good on its own (some awesome, some just good) and bringing it all together so epically is really impressive, in my books!

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