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jelly
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Post by jelly »

ric wrote:
Jelly wrote:
Jonathan wrote:I think Disney is starting to have an effect on the story telling power of Pixar (Brave being the example here), so I'm taking a wait and see attitude with Pixar from now on.
How on earth did so many people completely miss the point of Brave. >_<
I don't know if they missed the point so much as realized it wasn't that great. :p
That is missing the point. :(

I could defend one of the BEST ANIMATED FILMS OF ALL TIME even further, but I get this idea that people roll their eyes whenever I start getting all intense about movies. ;)
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Jelly wrote:I could defend one of the BEST ANIMATED FILMS OF ALL TIME even further, but I get this idea that people roll their eyes whenever I start getting all intense about movies. ;)
Well I would like to hear why it is one of the best animated films of all time. And I like people who are passionate about movies and filmmaking in general.
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Jonathan
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Post by Jonathan »

Jelly wrote:
Jonathan wrote:I think Disney is starting to have an effect on the story telling power of Pixar (Brave being the example here), so I'm taking a wait and see attitude with Pixar from now on.
How on earth did so many people completely miss the point of Brave. >_<
Never said Brave was a bad movie; it was pretty good, just not up to Pixar's usual standards, in my opinion.
This is also not true. Pixar and Disney have been working together since the beginning, although they've had notable disagreements, and the buyout of 2006 hasn't done anything to 'effect' Pixar's production quality. It's helpful to remember that there are many different creative minds behind each one of the Pixar productions we love, whether they're contracted by Disney or otherwise, so there's really no such thing as a "Pixar" brand of storytelling, even though it often feels like it.
They started working together long before 2006, sure, but given that Disney did not own Pixar prior to 2006 and was merely it's distributor, and that they bought Pixar only when the distribution agreement expired, they had an incredibly small say in Pixar's storytelling.

My concern now is that Disney is beginning to force some of their methods on Pixar. For example, prior to 2006, Pixar had a policy against sequels (Toy Store 2 being the one exception they allowed), but rather preferred to come up with original stories. Since 2006, they've had (including MU and Finding Dory, which haven't been released yet I believe, and Toy Story 3 which released after 2006) at least four sequels. And I'm not saying they've been bad--well, Toy Story 3 is the only film I've seen of those, and it was great. I just don't think relying on sequels will do the studio's storytelling and culture of creativity any favors.

The other indication that Disney is forcing it's methods on Pixar is that Brave, again, while enjoyable, was formulaic for Disney. Cheap, juvenile jokes, a princess, an animal sidekick, and some magic hocus-pocus thrown in as a plot point. Like we haven't seen that a bunch of times before. As my concern is for Pixar's culture of creativity, this was not a welcome addition to Pixar's film portfolio.

That all being said, what do you think the point of Brave was?
Last edited by Jonathan on Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by ric »

Jonathan wrote:They started working together long before 2006, sure, but given that Disney did not own Pixar prior to 2006 and was merely it's distributor, and that they bought Pixar only when the distribution agreement expired, they had an incredibly small say in Pixar's storytelling.

My concern now is that Disney is beginning to force some of their methods on Pixar. For example, prior to 2006, Pixar had a policy against sequels (Toy Store 2 being the one exception they allowed), but rather preferred to come up with original stories. Since 2006, they've had (including MU and Finding Dory, which haven't been released yet I believe, and Toy Story 3 which released after 2006) at least four sequels. And I'm not saying they've been bad--well, Toy Story 3 is the only film I've seen of those, and it was great. I just don't think relying on sequels will do the studio's storytelling and culture of creativity any favors.

The other indication that Disney is forcing it's methods on Pixar is that Brave, again, while enjoyable, was formulaic for Disney. Cheap, juvenile jokes, a princess, an animal sidekick, and some magic hocus-pocus thrown in as a plot point. Like we haven't seen that a bunch of times before. As my concern is for Pixar's culture of creativity, this was not a welcome addition to Pixar's film portfolio.
This.
Jelly wrote:I could defend one of the BEST ANIMATED FILMS OF ALL TIME even further, but I get this idea that people roll their eyes whenever I start getting all intense about movies. ;)
Just Brave. ;)
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Post by bookworm »

I would like to see the conclusion of this discussion; though it should probably take place in the Brave thread.
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Post by jelly »

Oh yeah, this thread. :P I think at one time I started building this huge defense of Brave, and then got bored or something.

But what the heck right? \:D/

Reasons Brave is Awesome:

It pushes the envelope of digital animation. Pixar has always been the lead innovator of 3D animation in film, and they raised the stakes again with Brave. It's absolutely beautiful to look at, the colors are more vivid than life, the lighting is perfect. The camera does things I've never seen an animation camera do. And with all of that, it still feels more real than most animated films I've ever seen. Don't even ask.. as far as I'm concerned it's magic. Two or three scenes always make me catch my breath, and I was fortunate enough to see it three times on the big screen.

Based on aesthetic value alone, this film is definitely one of Pixar's finest.

The story is brilliant because it subverts all your expectations. Princess story, castle in Ireland, yeah yeah we've seen this already. But by thirty minutes in, we're seeing things we've never seen before, experiencing emotions we've never felt in that context. There is raw honesty in Merida's independent spirit, she feels like a real person, no longer like a Disney princess. Merida's mother isn't a cruel stepmother-type character, or the perfect parent figure who knew best all along; she's also a real person! She's good, but also vulnerable. She's flawed, but in an endearing way. Both Merida and her mother have more life in them than most movie characters do, and the film sets them off on a journey where they both learn from their mistakes and mature mutually. When is the last time you've seen that? Even Up didn't do that. Finding Nemo did, but again it was more about Marlin's journey as a parent figure, less about Nemo's side of the whole mutual respect thing. Brave knocked both of those character development themes out of the park, and it never really felt forced. That's masterful screenwriting.

And even if the story felt familiar, Brave's catalyst of choice was really something else. You never saw that plot twist coming, did you? And here's where Brave's master stroke comes into play.. it uses the whole Bear catalyst to meet two ends, both comic relief and emotional pathos. Sometimes we're laughing at the unique chemistry between Merida and her ill-inflicted mother, other times we're struck by the sheer weight of the scenario. The whole concept actually comes dangerously close to pulling a 'Beauty and the Beast', in which we lose the heart of the character in the transformation, but through masterful animation and storytelling we still recognize Merida's mother the whole time, and the final scene still packs its emotional punch.

Brave takes you to new moral territory without you even knowing it. It simultaneously challenges the 'Disney Princess' conventions, the independent, child-follows-her-heart framework, and gender stereotypes. It's a love story, but there's no Prince Charming love interest in sight. It's about a mother and a daughter, and it's honest to a fault. It promotes feminism without being agenda driven. It's dark when it needs to be dark, appropriately comic when it's given the chance, and above all it has a passionate heart that shows through the script, the characters, the direction, the animation, the sound design, EVERYTHING.

And did I even mention how awesome the soundtrack is? It's like one of the best soundtracks I've ever heard.
Jonathan wrote:The other indication that Disney is forcing it's methods on Pixar is that Brave, again, while enjoyable, was formulaic for Disney. Cheap, juvenile jokes, a princess, an animal sidekick, and some magic hocus-pocus thrown in as a plot point. Like we haven't seen that a bunch of times before.
Ultimately I strongly disagree with this, based on all the reasons given above. Brave gets double points for being awesome because it was not only not formulaic, it made you think it was formulaic. Look closer, and you'll discover a story that spits in the face of Disney formula and raises the stakes for animated filmmaking everywhere.


edit:

Hallelujah! \:D/
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Post by EK »

While I agree with you Jelly... Nemo is the greatest animated movie of all time... OF ALL TIME.
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Post by Kairi »

You clearly haven't seen Ratatouille.
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Post by EK »

Now you're making me doubt myself. :(
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Post by Kairi »

Lose faith in the clownfish. You know in your heart that it is a flimsy one, based on nostalgia and cute sharks.
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Post by EK »

NEVER! :x There may be other fish in the sea, but that movie will always be my Nemo. :inlove:
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Post by Kairi »

EK wrote:NEVER! :x There may be other fish in the sea, but that movie will always be my Nemo. :inlove:
I think you mean your squishy.
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Post by EK »

I was quoting Marlin. GET IT STRAIGHT FOOL. :x
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Post by Kairi »

Really? You always seemed like more of a Dory to me.
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Post by EK »

Yeah. I always forgot I was the mayor here and wandered off to do something. :anxious: I'm a human dory, it's my new excuse.
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Post by Kairi »

Where's the like button, EK? ;)
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Post by EK »

I'm anti like button! :x
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Post by jelly »

Guys imma let you finish, but I just re-watched WALL-E yesterday.. and I'm pretty sure it's my new favorite Pixar of ALL TIME.
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Post by Kait »

WALL-E is REALLY good. I love that for the whole first half of the movie there is like NO DIALOGUE but you still know exactly what's going on ... that is amazing storytelling
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Post by jelly »

Oh I know. :inlove: Seriously, the opening thirty minutes of the film is about as close to perfection as it gets. It's actually a little bit of a letdown when we get introduced to the humans and the original premise is sort of pushed to the side to make room for the more conventional plot dynamics.. but hey, gotta keep the kids entertained right? So really, given the limitations and expectations of a family feature animation, I can't help but be hugely impressed with the audacious level of experimentation here. It's just.. so good. I heart Pixar to death right now.
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