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Lotr and Narnia vrs Harry Potter
Lotr and Narnia 67%  67%  [ 8 ]
Harry Potter 33%  33%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 12
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 Post Post subject: Re: Lotr and Narnia vrs Harry Potter
Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:03 pm 
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And of course, there's no way that The Chronicles of Narnia was an intended allegory. :noway:

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 Post Post subject: Re: Lotr and Narnia vrs Harry Potter
Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:42 pm 
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Narnia was obvious allegory to Christian themes, most notably:



Harry Potter was (probably) incidental allegory to Jesus. In the sense that someone dying to save people from dying and than coming back to life is very common in our western society. Since, you know, Jesus influenced alllll the art. Fans also interpret the stories themselves to be WW2 allegory.

LotR was not intended to be allegory by Tolkein who expressly said he didn't like allegory:


http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/411971- ... and-always

Though many fans of LotR have interpreted it as allegory anyway for WW2.

Sometimes LotR is interpretted for Christian themes, since he was also a Christian, though a different one from Lewis. Tolkein being a Catholic and Lewis being an Anglican.

Tolkein and Lewis were friends who would sit around and discuss philosophy and story telling in a pub while smoking cigars and drinking brandy. Lewis, of course, is known for being a rather large contributor to Christian philosophy, though serious Christian apologists rarely use his arguments today as they've mostly been discredited. Lewis also wrote other allegorical stories, such as his sci fi trilogy.

Tolkein, however, was not known for contributing to Christian philosophy, but to fantasy. He is known as the founder of modern fantasy, or at least epic high fantasy, creating an entire world from scratch with pages upon pages of backstory for LotR most, if not all, of which is available today, entire languages and cultures and sentient species, and may be responsible for creating the idea of the orc, or at least the modern idea of an orc. And the modern idea of dwarves, elves, and such.



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Last edited by jasonjannajerryjohn on Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:12 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post Post subject: Re: Lotr and Narnia vrs Harry Potter
Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:35 am 
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jasonjanajerryjohn wrote:
Harry Potter was (probably) incidental allegory to Jesus. In the sense that someone dying to save people from dying and than coming back to life is very common in our western society. Since, you know, Jesus influenced alllll the art. Fans also interpret it to be WW2 allegory.


I don't think it was incidental at all. Rowling has stated specifically that the books mirror her struggle with her faith and her belief in the afterlife. It most likely, if not definitely, is a direct reference to the gospels, given how much of the rest of the books she admits was taken directly from Christian tradition. She didn't want to be so explicit about her faith early on not because of anything to do with her religious struggles, but because astute readers would pick up on references to Christianity and allegory very quickly.

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/157210 ... gery.jhtml

There's also the fact that two biblical quotes--"Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also" and "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death"--are featured on gravestones in Godric's Hollow when Harry and Hermione go there in DH, as well as the quote from Quaker William Penn used as one of two epigraphs in the same book. Knowing the two intentional Biblical references and an epigraph from a leader Rowling knew was a Quaker, I find it hard to believe that a Messianic parallel was anything but wholly intentional.

I don't see how it's a World War II allegory, other than with Fudge = Neville Chamberlain, Dumbledore = Winston Churchill, Voldemort = Hitler, Muggle-borns = Jews, Death Eaters = Nazis, and the Muggle-born Registration Commission and subsequent sentencing to Azkaban = Holocaust/concentration camps. How was Harry's sacrifice a WWII allegory? :-s

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 Post Post subject: Re: Lotr and Narnia vrs Harry Potter
Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:34 am 
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Ginny Weasley wrote:
I don't see how it's a World War II allegory, other than with Fudge = Neville Chamberlain, Dumbledore = Winston Churchill, Voldemort = Hitler, Muggle-borns = Jews, Death Eaters = Nazis, and the Muggle-born Registration Commission and subsequent sentencing to Azkaban = Holocaust/concentration camps. How was Harry's sacrifice a WWII allegory? :-s


I love it. "I don't see how it's a WWII allegory, but here's how it's a WWII allegory." Harry's sacrifice probably isn't seen as such though. I suppose you could argue that it's Franklin Roosevelt dying in the middle of the war, though he obviously didn't come back to life. ;D

Muggle-borns would be all that were discriminated against by the Nazis, not just Jews. Communists, Homosexuals, Gypsies, Political Prisoners, ect.


Makes sense on the Christian imagery. Christianity has been influencing art for centuries so it would make sense it was in Harry Potter too, especially considering Rowling being a Christian herself. Astute readers would definitely pick up on it, the Bible is pretty mainstream in that most people in western society know a good number of Bible stories, even if they've never read the Bible. Mostly these are things like Jesus, Jonah, Genesis, Moses, things that are really prominent in the Biblical narrative.

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Last edited by jasonjannajerryjohn on Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:13 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post Post subject: Re: Lotr and Narnia vrs Harry Potter
Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:56 am 
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jasonjannajerryjohn wrote:
Ginny Weasley wrote:
I don't see how it's a World War II allegory, other than with Fudge = Neville Chamberlain, Dumbledore = Winston Churchill, Voldemort = Hitler, Muggle-borns = Jews, Death Eaters = Nazis, and the Muggle-born Registration Commission and subsequent sentencing to Azkaban = Holocaust/concentration camps. How was Harry's sacrifice a WWII allegory? :-s


[color=orange]I love it. "I don't see how it's a WWII allegory, but here's how it's a WWII allegory." Harry's sacrifice probably isn't seen as such though. I suppose you could argue that it's Franklin Roosevelt dying in the middle of the war, though he obviously didn't come back to life. ;D


That's what I was referring to. I meant that I understand how the overall conflict itself is a WWII allegory, but we were specifically talking about Harry's sacrifice, and you mentioned that some fans think it's a WWII allegory. I didn't get how they got WWII allegory out of his sacrifice, though perhaps I ought to have worded it better.

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 Post Post subject: Re: Lotr and Narnia vrs Harry Potter
Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:59 am 
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No, you were correct. That’s why Narnia isn’t an allegory, only somewhat allegorical.
In a true allegory, every aspect of the story corresponds to an aspect of something else. LoTR may have some allegorical pieces (intentional or not) but if there isn’t a parallel for that part then it is not an allegory.

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 Post Post subject: Re: Lotr and Narnia vrs Harry Potter
Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:14 pm 
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Ginny Weasley wrote:
That's what I was referring to. I meant that I understand how the overall conflict itself is a WWII allegory, but we were specifically talking about Harry's sacrifice, and you mentioned that some fans think it's a WWII allegory. I didn't get how they got WWII allegory out of his sacrifice, though perhaps I ought to have worded it better.


Ah, I gotcha. Faulty wording on my part, I fixed it now.

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Last edited by jasonjannajerryjohn on Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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