Agents of SHIELD

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bookworm
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Post by bookworm »

I liked this episode (16) but the dialog felt really clunky to me for some reason. There was just something... awkward. And not just in one place, but in multiple scenes throughout. Also, several clichés jumped out at me, such as 'Drop the sir' and 'I prefer the term' which doesn't usually happen with me, that I take particular and negative notice of lines like that, so that again suggests subpar writing.
I was very underwhelmed with the Clairvoyant reveal, so I'm glad it turned out to be fake.

I have no idea what May is involved in here, but I maintain belief that it only looks shady from the outside and she's not really a traitor.

Hand on the other hand (heh, didn't plan that it just came out that way) appears to definitely be a bad guy. I'm really excited and nervous to see where this is going.
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Post by Shennifer »

I think you'll really like the next episode, bookworm :yes:

episode 17:
Having already blogged about this on tumblr, this is a bit of a rehash for me. I'm happy Skyeward kissed, and I hope that he's undercover and not actually on the bad side. I have not seen Captain America 2 (which is said to be tied into this and the next episode of AoS. Intense action all around, with the team wondering who to trust. This, in my opinion, is where it's getting really good. I loved May and Coulson's conversation when he was bandaging her because she wants him to trust her again, and it's clear he's struggling to.
Poor Fitz, he just wanted the craziness to end so he could see Jemma again.

About the end, part of me kinda wants Ward to actually be Hydra, because it would be more compelling when/if he turns to the good side again.
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Post by Whitty Whit »

OH MY GOODNESS. I have not seen Cap 2, but i really want too so I can understand the past couple of episodes. Agents of SHIELD just jumped to the top of my list now. The first half of the show was just (seemingly) individual plots that didn't have anything to do with anything. But now, I love all the plots and drama and stuff. I agree, Shen, I'm kinda torn with Ward. Is this Joss Whedon's way of "killing a character"? We had said that him killing off a main character early wouldn't be good. He didn't kill Ward, instead, he's making it seem like he's Hydra. I personally love Ward the most. His character development and style. Just an amazing show.
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Post by bookworm »

Holy cow this episode was insane! I don’t think I’ve even fully processed what all just went down yet.
I knew May was on the level. I had it right from the start, she was just keeping an eye on Colson for his own good.

Normally when a story like this throws in twist after twist like this I get annoyed. I consider all the ‘woah, this person is bad!’ ‘wait, is this person good actually?’ ‘oh my gosh, that other person is actually bad!’ to just be over the top. A good amount twists is great, but one after another after another just comes off as blatant shock value. However, I never felt that about this episode. At each twist I was like ‘Yeah, this is great! Keep it coming.’
Until the last one. I didn’t like that at all. Not that there was one final twist, I’m down with that, but I didn’t like what the twist was. How can Ward be a traitor? It’s just not right, on any level. I don’t get it. I’m really hoping there’s some explanation to this, that it’s somehow not what it seems, but I don’t see how it could be anything else. It looks pretty clear.
Shennifer wrote:
I hope that he's undercover and not actually on the bad side.
I don’t see how that could be the case since he doesn’t just ‘seem’ to be with HYDRA, he straight up murdered Agent Hand. Not just shot her, actually killed her. Overkilled her in fact, it was like four or five bullets. I don’t care how undercover you are, you don’t kill your allies to maintain that cover.
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Post by Shennifer »

bookworm wrote:
Shennifer wrote:
I hope that he's undercover and not actually on the bad side.
I don’t see how that could be the case since he doesn’t just ‘seem’ to be with HYDRA, he straight up murdered Agent Hand. Not just shot her, actually killed her. Overkilled her in fact, it was like four or five bullets. I don’t care how undercover you are, you don’t kill your allies to maintain that cover.
In a sense I agree with you, that you should spare your allies and not kill them to maintain a cover. However, in intense situations, you might have to make a hard decision to kill an ally to convince your enemies that you were on their side.
But I already said that I it would be more compelling/interesting is if Ward really is on Hydra's side, but then later he realizes he has real feelings of loyalty for his previous team, as well as romantic feelings for Skye. If done right, it could be a really good finale
Last edited by Shennifer on Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by bookworm »

Shennifer wrote:
However, in intense situations, you might have to make a hard decision to kill an ally to convince your enemies that you were on their side.
Yes, but this wasn’t an intense situation. It was his choice to go ahead with the shooting, he didn’t have to. Hand was the one that was like ‘Want to shoot him’ he could have just said no. It wouldn’t have blown his cover because if he was HYDRA he wouldn’t want to shoot him. He didn’t have to flip it and then shoot Hand.
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Post by Whitty Whit »

bookworm wrote:
Shennifer wrote:
However, in intense situations, you might have to make a hard decision to kill an ally to convince your enemies that you were on their side.
Yes, but this wasn’t an intense situation. It was his choice to go ahead with the shooting, he didn’t have to. Hand was the one that was like ‘Want to shoot him’ he could have just said no. It wouldn’t have blown his cover because if he was HYDRA he wouldn’t want to shoot him. He didn’t have to flip it and then shoot Hand.
But remember during the dramatic musical interlude with the slo-mo shots of Trip and everybody else realizing that Garret was Hydra; Ward acted like he didn't know what was going on. So it could be a couple things: Ward has no idea what's going on and thinks that Hand really still is Hydra; or that he has joined Hydra (which seems unlikely); or he's being controlled (by whom or what I have no idea, just postulating because of this extremely erratic behavior).
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Post by bookworm »

Good thoughts, but to me that’s all wishfull thinking, just trying to find another way to look at this. I don’t see any reason to think what’s being presented isn’t what’s happening.
Whitty Whit wrote:
Ward has no idea what's going on and thinks that Hand really still is Hydra
It was all explained to him though, so he didn’t know what was going on at first, thus his appearance of confusion, because he was then, but he’s been filled in now.
Whitty Whit wrote:
or that he has joined Hydra (which seems unlikely)
It does seem unlikely, as I said it’s not right on any level, it just doesn’t fit, but without a substantial alternative we have to assume that’s the case.
Whitty Whit wrote:
or he's being controlled (by whom or what I have no idea, just postulating because of this extremely erratic behavior).
This is the only one I could see any merit in, and I’ve considered the possibility myself. Because the whole series of events is out of character from the beginning, not just the twist at the end. From when he shot the fake Clairvoyant onward. They said he did that because they pushed his buttons, which works, but if they can do that then couldn’t they do more and somehow make him go along with this, without him actually being a real traitor. Some kind of control, or at least extreme influence. The look in his eyes at the very end of this episode was what made me really consider that there might be something to something like that. It wasn’t an evil look, like ‘Yeah I’m a bad guy now’ it was simply an empty look, like he realized what was going on, but wasn’t really ‘aware’ of it. I don’t know. We’ll see next episode.
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Post by Shennifer »

bookworm wrote:
Shennifer wrote:
However, in intense situations, you might have to make a hard decision to kill an ally to convince your enemies that you were on their side.
Yes, but this wasn’t an intense situation. It was his choice to go ahead with the shooting, he didn’t have to. Hand was the one that was like ‘Want to shoot him’ he could have just said no. It wouldn’t have blown his cover because if he was HYDRA he wouldn’t want to shoot him. He didn’t have to flip it and then shoot Hand.
True.
bookworm wrote:
This is the only one I could see any merit in, and I’ve considered the possibility myself. Because the whole series of events is out of character from the beginning, not just the twist at the end. From when he shot the fake Clairvoyant onward. They said he did that because they pushed his buttons, which works, but if they can do that then couldn’t they do more and somehow make him go along with this, without him actually being a real traitor. Some kind of control, or at least extreme influence. The look in his eyes at the very end of this episode was what made me really consider that there might be something to something like that. It wasn’t an evil look, like ‘Yeah I’m a bad guy now’ it was simply an empty look, like he realized what was going on, but wasn’t really ‘aware’ of it. I don’t know. We’ll see next episode.
I definitely agree with you about the end, and the look in his eyes.
Another thing I've heard (based on what the actor has said, etc.) is that Ward didn't expect to feel so loyal to his team and by extension develop feelings for Skye. I wonder what they want her for (the fake Clairvoyant said they wanted her, which is part of the reason Ward shot him)
and that's another thing: what if he's protected Skye was part of him being controlled/whatever, and so Hydra and the Clairvoyant could have her, but then he actually did start to fall for her, so it's become complicated for him.

Also, a theory about the Clairvoyant: Garrett didn't deny or confirm anything. Which got me thinking that what if all of Hydra is actually the Clairvoyant? that those with high security clearance gathered info together. Therefore the Clairvoyant can't be traced to just one person if they were caught. Maybe there really is one top dog running the show, but they could still have multiple people working for them who have the same security clearance. What if they made it seem like one person was the Clairvoyant (even to some of their own people) just to cover their tracks?
Last edited by Shennifer on Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by BlessedCheesemaker »

My personal opinion is that Garrett put an eye controller in Ward while he was his apprentice or whatever. He activated it to tell Ward to kill the fake Clairvoyant and that's why Ward killed the guards and Hand. I think if he was fully Hydra, Ward would have said "Hail Hydra!" after he killed the guards, but all he did was nod at Garrett as if he was following an order.
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Post by Knight Fisher »

@ BC
That was the initial thought in my house after it first happened. However we already have precedent that it takes a handler to relay commands to the eye things. Which would definitively mean Garrett isn't the Clairvoyant. Plus there was no reason for him to continue to fire at Hand if that was the case.

I really, really hope that Ward stays a bad guy. It'll feel really cheap if he turns back for the finale or something.
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Post by bookworm »

BlessedCheesemaker wrote:
My personal opinion is that Garrett put an eye controller in Ward while he was his apprentice or whatever. He activated it to tell Ward to kill the fake Clairvoyant and that's why Ward killed the guards and Hand.
That was one of my initial thoughts as well, but it doesn’t fit with the scene. Remember that the eye thing doesn’t control you, it just tells you what to do and you obey if you don’t want to die. Ward didn’t look like he was just following an instruction, he would have been more reluctant. He looked like he was committed to and okay with what he was doing.
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Post by Astronomer »

I think Ward turned to HYDRA in order to save Skye's life. He knew he would have to work from the inside in order to keep Skye alive. And, compared to Skye, Hand's life wasn't all that important. (We've already seen Ward is capable of making a tough choice.)
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Post by Whitty Whit »

Remember when Coulson was interrogating Ward in the Cage (brig/whatever. i can't remember the name for it) Coulson yelled who was Ward working for. Ward seemed so passionate when he said he wasn't working for anybody. But that all could've been act. I would have to rewatch that scene to pick up on any foreshadowing that could've happened in their dialogue. But just a thought.
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Post by bookworm »

I had no idea this show was going to do this. I was fine with following SHIELD around on routine missions, I never imagined the entire premise would fundamentally change once we got into it. This is an amazing and unprecedented media event. The tie-in with the movie, that they both affect each other in real time.
It looks like Ward is for real then. Too bad. But in a way actually good, because you don't need to always have a shocking traitor end up being controlled or having some other motivation, sometimes they just need to be bad to be bad. I would still like some kind of redemption in the end, but that's just because I like the character. I can acknowledge that from a purely objective story viewpoint that would probably be too predictable/weak and he should really just stay bad. We'll see what happens.

This episode was another that uncharacteristically made me take note of the dialogue. I know nothing about what makes dialogue good or bad, but for whatever reason just as that other episode struck me as bad, the dialogue in this episode stuck me as really good.
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Post by Shennifer »

I'm glad you were surprised, bookworm.
Even though Ward is on the bad side, I still think his feelings for Skye are genuine. This was a pretty good episode overall, especially Chloe's acting. I'm sad that May left the bunker, but hopefully she'll find some answers. It was interesting to hear all their responses to the lie detector test.
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Post by bookworm »

This was a good episode, but there's not too much to say about it. Straightforward moving along.

I got some real déjà vu from Arrow, they did this exact same thing: Have a prison break so you can introduce a bunch of psychopaths that can be dropped into single episodes to fill out the story.

The lie detector sequence was a simple but effective way to get a deeper feel of all the characters.

I'm glad Skye is on to Ward already, I thought they might try to drag out the 'they don't know there's a traitor with them' for a bit. Hopefully the rest of the team figures it out too now, since they left.

I wonder what May is up to.
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Post by Shennifer »

To me, it Skye was laying the deception on a little too thick. But I get that she was trying to appear normal. Ward is turning out to be a much more interesting character than I thought at the beginning of this show. I still want Skyeward to happen at some point in the future.
Emotional conversations between Skye and Ward just broke my heart because he's on the bad side but his feelings for her are real. I think she feels something too, but she feels betrayed by someone she got close to.

All of May's scenes were great; and it was good seeing Hill and Coulson work together and kick some tail

Coulson rescuing Skye was fantastic! Lola flew again \:D/

The video that talked about the side effects of the drug used to revive Coulson and Skye just about made my heart stop because that means the worst isn't over.

Kinda bittersweet that Ward wasn't there at the end, when they were all relaxing by the pool. It was a nice moment amidst all the chaos.
Can't believe the season is almost over! wonder how this one will end
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Post by bookworm »

For goodness sake, that was awful. I was liking this episode until Skye went stupid out of nowhere. She just finished ranting about how Ward is the worst person and she hates him and all that, but for some reason she then caves and gives them what they want to save his life? Not to save her life, she was in no danger, it was to save his life. Skye held all the cards here. They can't touch her, they need her to unlock the drive. She shouldn't care if Ward died, that would have actually been a positive in her current situation. I can come up with no rationale for her decision whatsoever.

The ending was great though. It adds so much to the TAHITI story to find out Coulson was the one behind it all along. Especially when he said why memory replacement was necessary. Now we can see the full picture of what went on. They didn't remove Coulson's memory of his operation simply because they were trying to protect him mentally or emotionally, which would have been good enough, but it was way more than that, it was because they were trying to protect him literally because knowing what happened was what causes the side effects. So all the keeping stuff from him was genuinely done with nothing but his interest in mind, to the highest level. It had to be that way.
The question now is whether he is resusceptible to the side effects since he has regained the knowledge of what happened to him.
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