PHC - Clarification

[Jesus' Princess]

On the subject of rock music, I don't listen to it, and it's not something that I want to be associated with. Most of the lyrics and attitudes portrayed are ungodly, and wrong, But, I can't say that listening to rock music will keep you out of heaven, UNLESS, God tells you specifically to stop listening to it and you don't listen to him, then you have directly disobeyed the Lord and sinned.

[The Top Crusader]

On the subject of rock music, I don't listen to it, and it's not something that I want to be associated with.

Ah, very good.

Most of the lyrics and attitudes portrayed are ungodly, and wrong,

Okay, prove that, please? Some =/= most, just like the internet.

But, I can't say that listening to rock music will keep you out of heaven, UNLESS, God tells you specifically to stop listening to it and you don't listen to him, then you have directly disobeyed the Lord and sinned.

"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". I'm confused because both you and odysseyfan1 have made statements like this. Must we ask specific forgiveness for every sin and if we miss one we won't go to heaven?

[Jeremy]

None of us think rock music will keep you out of heaven.

OF1 believes it will. He says that sinning will keep you out of heaven. That's the real issue that should be discussed here, is the false gospel of salvation by faith plus works that PHC teaches.

Jeremy

[Lee]

I mean have you noticed almost no one else on this board agrees with you? And we have a pretty diverse group of denominations.

American Eagle, Dr. Watson, KODY 105, Laura Ingalls, Regis Blackbeard, iluvsns, Peachey Keen, odysseyfan1, Whitty Whit.

I don't think any of those users regularly listen to/support rock music. Forgive me if I misrepresented any of you.

You definitely didn't misrepresent me.

Thanks for that, odysseyfan1. I really appreciate what you had to say.

[Termite]

TBN is an abomination. Seriously its awful.

Oh, well, it was the first one I thought of. xD We have several others; some with some excellent preaching. My point still stands.

[Christian A.]

None of us think rock music will keep you out of heaven.

OF1 believes it will. He says that sinning will keep you out of heaven. That's the real issue that should be discussed here, is the false gospel of salvation by faith plus works that PHC teaches.

Jeremy

I think you are slightly misrepresenting of1 and the PHC movement. But I can see what you mean. If your sin gets you "unsaved," then it must be your good works keeping you saved, not Christ's. But I also see his point that if you listen to rock music, it's okay--you can go to heaven. (I listen to Christian rock artists, and I have assurance of heaven when I die.) But if God specifically came and told you, like of1 seems to be saying, not to listen to rock music, and you refused Him to His face, then it would show that you aren't a true believer. I think that's all of1's trying to say.

[The Top Crusader]

...eh, even like Moses went to heaven after God directly told him to talk to a rock.

He was punished for his disobedience, yes, but not with eternal hellfire, his punishment was on the earth, not the afterlife.

[SoccerLOTR]

...eh, even like Moses went to heaven after God directly told him to talk to a rock.

He was punished for his disobedience, yes, but not with eternal hellfire, his punishment was on the earth, not the afterlife.

I admit I'm a little confused by his denomination because of that belief. I belong to a holiness denomination as well (though it is VERY different than his) and the main point with it is that while works don't save us, we shouldn't abandon works all together. After you have been saved though God's grace, we should strive to live a holy lifestyle in order to grow closer to God, and show we love him through our obedience to Him. But if we don't always succeed in doing His will, it doesn't mean we go to hell--but we may have missed out on something great that God had for us. Like Moses missed out on the promised land because of his disobedience.

[odysseyfan1]

You think the church only split after the 1900s? Which church are you thinking of? Rock music has been considered wicked by some since it's beginning no doubt but I'm saying I don't think the church in general considers it so, I mean have you noticed almost no one else on this board agrees with you? And we have a pretty diverse group of denominations.

For example, the Nazarenes, Wesleyans. They used to be exactly like us. I don't remember the exact time, but I think the early part of the 1900's.

I am really curious as to your answer. So those rules are laid out without consideration as to how God will lead the individual, but assuming that He will call them to not listen to rock music and the other standards that you say are needed to be "entirely sanctified"? Also are you equating listening to rock music with being a homosexual?

I didn't say these standards are needed to be ES'ed. Just to have a big position in the church.

No, I'm not equating those two sins. I'm simply saying that we don't allow people be pastors, ect. of our churches, if they don't follow the rules. That would be like you letting a homosexual be the pastor of your church. Oh, and I don't think we have a rule against rock music.

Sherlock agrees with me that Tradition is important and can be as authoritative as Scripture. She does not agree with the rock music issue. If you're following the rules simply because the people who made them had good reasons and not because the rules are Scriptural you are going with tradition. How is it different?

"Jesus Doesn't Want Me for a Sunbeam" by Nirvana, (look up the words if you want) "God is dead, and no one cares, if their's a Hell, I'll see you there." "There's a tear in my beer."

I rest my case. I understand that not all rock/ect. music is like that, but who can tell what I'm listening to? It all sounds the same, Christian or secular. I don't want to be associated with that. Besides I don't even want to listen to rock music, so what's the point?

There's a huge difference between doesn't regularly listen to and thinks it's wicked and will keep you out of heaven.

Once again, it won't keep you out of Heaven unless God tells you not to, and you rebel against that order.

Yes, that was a joke. No one's hyper and mad, buddy.

OK, well it seemed like it was getting pretty heated up. Just trying to keep things calm.

Sinning is a lot different then not going to Heaven. Read your post I first quoted again. =P

You can't sin and go to heaven.

...I know the rock issue has been spoken of to death but I'd really like actual scripture or proof of some kind on that issue. >_>

Instead of "Rock music, is WAY different. Bad artists, bad songs, worldly music, bad history, the way it affects you, thw way the church has always stood against it..." as a statement with nothing at all to support it.

I just gave you about every reason in the world that we don't listen to it. Refer to the song lyrics above, and you'll see yet another reason.

-- 30 May 2011 07:41 am --

On the subject of rock music, I don't listen to it, and it's not something that I want to be associated with. Most of the lyrics and attitudes portrayed are ungodly, and wrong, But, I can't say that listening to rock music will keep you out of heaven, UNLESS, God tells you specifically to stop listening to it and you don't listen to him, then you have directly disobeyed the Lord and sinned.

Thank you. That is very good, and what I think I've been saying the whole time!

"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". I'm confused because both you and odysseyfan1 have made statements like this. Must we ask specific forgiveness for every sin and if we miss one we won't go to heaven?

I don't believe in Calvinism. You can't sin and go to Heaven. Sure people will make mistakes once in a while, but they need to ask forgiveness and move on.

OF1 believes it will. He says that sinning will keep you out of heaven. That's the real issue that should be discussed here, is the false gospel of salvation by faith plus works that PHC teaches.

Jeremy
We don't teach salvation by works. We simply obey the commands stated in the Bible. And yes, sinning will keep you out of Heaven.

I think you are slightly misrepresenting of1 and the PHC movement. But I can see what you mean. If your sin gets you "unsaved," then it must be your good works keeping you saved, not Christ's. But I also see his point that if you listen to rock music, it's okay--you can go to heaven. (I listen to Christian rock artists, and I have assurance of heaven when I die.) But if God specifically came and told you, like of1 seems to be saying, not to listen to rock music, and you refused Him to His face, then it would show that you aren't a true believer. I think that's all of1's trying to say.

Exactly.

I admit I'm a little confused by his denomination because of that belief. I belong to a holiness denomination as well (though it is VERY different than his) and the main point with it is that while works don't save us, we shouldn't abandon works all together. After you have been saved though God's grace, we should strive to live a holy lifestyle in order to grow closer to God, and show we love him through our obedience to Him. But if we don't always succeed in doing His will, it doesn't mean we go to hell--but we may have missed out on something great that God had for us. Like Moses missed out on the promised land because of his disobedience.

True, but what my point is, is that you can't go to the bar, participate in immoral behavior, tell lies, steal cars and semi trucks, and do this your whole life, and never repent (even if you have been saved at one point) and still go to Heaven. You'd be going directly against the word of God.

What denomination do you belong to?

-- 30 May 2011 07:42 am --

Thanks for that, odysseyfan1. I really appreciate what you had to say.

Which part?

[Lee]

Thanks for that, odysseyfan1. I really appreciate what you had to say.

Which part?

All of your first post. I totally agree.

[Termite]

"Jesus Doesn't Want Me for a Sunbeam" by Nirvana, (look up the words if you want) "God is dead, and no one cares, if their's a Hell, I'll see you there." "There's a tear in my beer."

I rest my case. I understand that not all rock/ect. music is like that, but who can tell what I'm listening to? It all sounds the same, Christian or secular. I don't want to be associated with that. Besides I don't even want to listen to rock music, so what's the point?

That reminded me of this: "You say that God is dead, but you're ripping me off. You can't infect my mind with your vanity." Retro Skillet ftw.

And people who listen to rock can tell what you're listening to. Good conversation starter.

Sinning is a lot different then not going to Heaven. Read your post I first quoted again. =P

You can't sin and go to heaven.

We all sin, buddy. So what happens if I sin MAJORLY then die before asking forgiveness? Do I go to Hell, then? What about a tribal member who heard the message of Jesus, accepted, but doesn't have a Bible and gets drunk regularly cause of strong wine to go with dinner? Does he go to Hell?

...I know the rock issue has been spoken of to death but I'd really like actual scripture or proof of some kind on that issue. >_>

Instead of "Rock music, is WAY different. Bad artists, bad songs, worldly music, bad history, the way it affects you, thw way the church has always stood against it..." as a statement with nothing at all to support it.

I just gave you about every reason in the world that we don't listen to it. Refer to the song lyrics above, and you'll see yet another reason.

I think what he's getting at more is that you don't have to like it, but don't go around preaching it's bad, when all of it isn't. No one's telling you that you have to like it, though.

[Amethystic]

"Jesus Doesn't Want Me for a Sunbeam" by Nirvana, (look up the words if you want) "God is dead, and no one cares, if their's a Hell, I'll see you there." "There's a tear in my beer."

I rest my case. I understand that not all rock/ect. music is like that, but who can tell what I'm listening to? It all sounds the same, Christian or secular. I don't want to be associated with that. Besides I don't even want to listen to rock music, so what's the point?

That reminded me of this: "You say that God is dead, but you're ripping me off. You can't infect my mind with your vanity." Retro Skillet ftw.

"Beautiful bride, body of Christ, one flesh abiding, strong and unifying! Fighting ends in forgiveness, unite and fight all division! Beautiful bride..." --Flyleaf

There are definitely songs with overtly Christian messages, where if the lyrics were presented without the music I'd think they'd be perfectly acceptable. So, is the music godly, is the spirit behind the artist's music wrong, or is the genre itself inherently wrong? Now that is the question.

And people who listen to rock can tell what you're listening to. Good conversation starter.

Definitely. I would never, ever listen to Nirvana, and I do not listen to songs if their lyrics are atheistic. I'm a lyric listener, so if I hear something in a song that sounds 'off' I stay away from it. (I still, however, think I need to learn to cut back on certain depressing/emo bands, since all they really do is despair without offering any hope. I definitely don't want to be receiving a spirit of hopelessness through my music. :/ )

[Knight Fisher]

Ew

[SoccerLOTR]

You think the church only split after the 1900s? Which church are you thinking of? Rock music has been considered wicked by some since it's beginning no doubt but I'm saying I don't think the church in general considers it so, I mean have you noticed almost no one else on this board agrees with you? And we have a pretty diverse group of denominations.

For example, the Nazarenes, Wesleyans. They used to be exactly like us. I don't remember the exact time, but I think the early part of the 1900's.

Or maybe you were exactly like them... Hate to tell ya, but before the 1900s there were still multiple denominations...

I admit I'm a little confused by his denomination because of that belief. I belong to a holiness denomination as well (though it is VERY different than his) and the main point with it is that while works don't save us, we shouldn't abandon works all together. After you have been saved though God's grace, we should strive to live a holy lifestyle in order to grow closer to God, and show we love him through our obedience to Him. But if we don't always succeed in doing His will, it doesn't mean we go to hell--but we may have missed out on something great that God had for us. Like Moses missed out on the promised land because of his disobedience.

True, but what my point is, is that you can't go to the bar, participate in immoral behavior, tell lies, steal cars and semi trucks, and do this your whole life, and never repent (even if you have been saved at one point) and still go to Heaven. You'd be going directly against the word of God.

What denomination do you belong to?

Wow, when did I say ANY of that was acceptable? I'm not saying you become a Christian then do whatever you want without consequences. If you do all that, you show that you are not truly a Christian and that you have fallen away because obviously God's law isn't important to you. HOWEVER...

"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". I'm confused because both you and odysseyfan1 have made statements like this. Must we ask specific forgiveness for every sin and if we miss one we won't go to heaven?

I don't believe in Calvinism. You can't sin and go to Heaven. Sure people will make mistakes once in a while, but they need to ask forgiveness and move on.

...I do not get this. We need to ask forgiveness for "mistakes". But mistakes do not = sins? How can you say that mistakes are not sins? My point is that we are human. We make mistakes (SIN), but we do not KEEP sinning once we are convicted of it. Yes, if we directly defy God over and over again with no repentance, than no, we won't go to heaven. But if we make the effort to do what is right and to stay in communion with God, but sometimes mess up and disobey--the relationship is not altogether ruined. It is the attitude of the heart and the relationship with God that matters. you cannot have a good relationship with God if you abandon Him for the pleasures of the world, and therefore, you are no longer a Christian if you choose to leave God. But if you love God and seek to know Him, and in loving Him, seek to obey Him, you're not gonna automatically go to hell when you break a rule. Like Top said--Moses had a good relationship with God--then disobeyed God and was punished for his disobedience. Did he go on and continue doing this because he didn't care about his relationship with God? No! he changed and once again sought to follow God, and God forgave him, and they still had a relationship--though the punishment still stood. It's similar to human relationships...for example, have I disobeyed my mom? Yup. Did I do it with malice or disregard for her? No. Did I get punished? Yup. Did I keep doing it? No. Is our relationship ruined because I disobeyed her on those few occasions? No. I still have a great relationship with her, despite my inability to always be a perfect child.

And just FYI, that's not quite what Calvinism is...they'd say that the person was just never saved in the first place.

My church is Nazarene, though my beliefs are more Wesleyan--though they're almost identical. Lol, both the denominations you mentioned earlier...

[Stop Wooton' Around]

I mean have you noticed almost no one else on this board agrees with you? And we have a pretty diverse group of denominations.

I agree! I go to the same denominational church as him so I agree with what he has been saying.

The problem is like a lot of other churches we get caught up in standards. Read the Bible for yourself and God will tell you whats right and whats not. Its hard for those of us who have been raised under certain standards to do certain things.

Like my dad says, someday your going to stand naked before an almighty God and you are going to have to answer to him. Not your parents, not your friends, and not even your pastor.

So we can debate dressing standards, TV, jewelry, and whatever we want but if you and God aren't clear then it doesn't matter.

Part of the problem is, is the fact we are preaching about the outside but if you have it on the inside it shows up on the outside. Adventures in Odyssey actually dealt on this subject in Isaac: The Pure.

We all sin, buddy. So what happens if I sin MAJORLY then die before asking forgiveness? Do I go to Hell, then? What about a tribal member who heard the message of Jesus, accepted, but doesn't have a Bible and gets drunk regularly cause of strong wine to go with dinner? Does he go to Hell?

Okay, we are all born with the nature of sin so yeah we all do sin. If forgive you shouldn't sin anymore. Here is where I could get myself in trouble, I'm not sure of the whole second work thing becuase the thief on the cross didn't have time to get the second work of grace. However if you are truly saved your not going to continue in sinful things. BTW: In God's eyes all sin is the same there is no degree of sin it doesn't matter if you stole one cent of a million dollars its still sin.

To answer your question about the tribal person. If he walks in as much light that is available to him then no it is not wrong. But for someone who has access to a Bible or scripture it is wrong.

[Knight Fisher]

Ew

[Amethystic]

"If you're truly saved you'll stop sinning" isn't a realistic expectation--after all, it doesn't take into account addictions, bad habits, mental illness, incorrect theological beliefs, and just plain ol' human nature. We sin, and we don't always repent for it; that doesn't necessarily mean we're not going to heaven, if we have an active relationship with the Lord, but it will put a barrier between us and our ability to follow God to our fullest potential.

[Knight Fisher]

Ew

[Amethystic]

Yes, but sin is sin whether you consciously know about it or not. God's law is written in a man's heart--murder is wrong whether your society says it's wrong or not, as is lying, cheating, and a whole bunch of other sins. Also, what about minor offenses like snarky put-downs or coarse joking? Most people, even Christians, indulge in those bad habits from time to time without repenting; will it keep them from going to heaven?

[Stop Wooton' Around]

Wow we are getting into a lot of theology!

There are sins people don't know they commit. But if they ask God for forgiveness for even the ones they don't know. We as fallen humans can't stop sinning until God makes us perfect on the last day. Mark 2:17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

So if you don't know it's a sin then that means God hasn't showed you that it is a sin therefore its not sinning.

"If you're truly saved you'll stop sinning" isn't a realistic expectation--after all, it doesn't take into account addictions, bad habits, mental illness, incorrect theological beliefs, and just plain ol' human nature. We sin, and we don't always repent for it; that doesn't necessarily mean we're not going to heaven, if we have an active relationship with the Lord, but it will put a barrier between us and our ability to follow God to our fullest potential.

But when you get saved God removes "plain ol' human nature" or the desire to sin. Bad habits and addictions are impossible to break alone but as Philippians 4:13 states "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."

"We sin and we don't always repent for it; that doesn't necessarily mean we're not going to heaven." Yes it does! Acts 3:19 "Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,"

So its only sin if you know its sin? It is a sin no matter what. Romans 2:14-15 14 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.

"Their consciences also bearing witness" and "even though they do not have the law" are key parts of this verse. They would be doing what they thought was right according to their consciences which follows the law.

Yes, but sin is sin whether you consciously know about it or not. God's law is written in a man's heart--murder is wrong whether your society says it's wrong or not, as is lying, cheating, and a whole bunch of other sins. Also, what about minor offenses like snarky put-downs or coarse joking? Most people, even Christians, indulge in those bad habits from time to time without repenting; will it keep them from going to heaven?

Again Acts 3:19 states "Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,". So yes you do have to repent.