ric wrote:Christian A. wrote:@ LJ Gibbs: If He died to take the penalty for everyone, why do the unbelievers still suffer that penalty when they die and go to hell?
And what about those who were already in the grave--the Old Testament wicked condemned as depraved? Did He die for them? Really? How could they have "accepted" that gift?
Jesus suffered through "Hell" in a sense on the cross so that believers wouldn't have to. If He suffered through Hell for those who wouldn't believe in Him, then He totally suffered in vain for the most part! Far more people go to Hell than to heaven! So how could He have taken their wrath from God away from them if they're suffering through it right now?!
Uh...no, he died to take the penalty for everyone on Earth. John 3:16 says 'For God so loved the WORLD...' Not 'For God so loved just his believers...'
It's everyone's choice whether they ACCEPT his grace or not.
Right...God so loved the world. That includes us. He
loved the world. That doesn't mean He died to save the world. What does the rest of the verse say? Oh yeah! "That
whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.
I definitely understand why you believe the way you do. But I've heard from pastors who study the Greek and Hebrew of those types of passages say that when Paul or any of the other NT writers uses the words "all men" or "world" he uses them because most of the time he was writing things that Gentiles would read. They had always believed that salvation was only for the Jews, but Paul wanted to show them that now all men had the chance to be saved.
Just because all men are able to be saved doesn't mean that all will be saved. Because God is omniscient, even if you don't believe in election, it's obvious that He knows who He would save and who He wouldn't. Saving is a work of the Holy Spirit, not because of righteous works we have done, so wouldn't you think God would know who He was going to save?
Therefore, why would Jesus die and be punished with God's wrath for those whom He knew wouldn't be saved? Was one single drop of Jesus' blood shed in vain?!
And here's the thing that totally convinces me: If Jesus died for all men who ever lived, what about the Old Testament wicked who died in their sins, condemned as depraved? Are you going to say that Jesus died for even those in Hell already? Jesus obviously didn't die for "all men" the way you interpret the phrase.
Here's the lyrics to a song that I like that explains the situation quite well:
Here’s a controversial subject that tends to divide.
For years it’s had Christians lining up on both sides.
By God’s grace, I’ll address this without pride.
The question concerns those for whom Christ died.
Was He trying to save everybody worldwide?
Was He trying to make the entire world His Bride?
Does man’s unbelief keep the Savior’s hands tied?
Biblically, each of these must be denied.
It’s true, Jesus gave up His life for His Bride.
But His Bride is the elect, to whom His death is applied.
If on judgment day, you see that you can’t hide,
and because of your sin, God’s wrath on you abides,
And hell is the place you eternally reside,
That means your wrath from God hasn’t been satisfied.
But we believe His mission was accomplished when He die.
But how the cross relates to those in hell?
Well, they be saying:
Lord knows He tried.
Verse 2
Father, Son and Spirit: three and yet one
Working as a unit to get things done.
Our salvation began in eternity past.
God certainly has to bring all His purpose to pass.
A triune, eternal bond no one could ever sever.
When it comes to the church, look how they work together.
The Father foreknew first, the Son came to earth
To die- the Holy Spirit gives the new birth.
The Father elects them, the Son pays their debt and protects them.
The Spirit is the One who resurrects them.
The Father chooses them, the Son gets bruised for them,
The Spirit renews them and produces fruit in them.
Everybody’s not elect, the Father decides.
And it’s only the elect in whom the Spirit resides.
The Father and the Spirit- completely unified
But when it comes to Christ and those in hell?
Well, they be saying:
Lord knows He tried
Verse 3
My third and final verse- here’s the situation
Just a couple more things for your consideration:
If saving everybody was why Christ came in history,
With so many in hell, we’d have to say He failed miserably.
So many think He only came to make it possible.
Let’s follow this solution to a conclusion that’s logical.
What about those who were already in the grave?
The Old Testament wicked- condemned as depraved
Did He die for them? C’mon, behave!
But worst of all, you’re saying the cross by itself doesn’t save!
That we must do something to give the cross its power!
That means, at the end of the day, the glory’s ours!
That man-centered thinking is not recommended.
The cross will save all for whom it was intended,
Because for the elect, God’s wrath was satisfied.
But still, when it comes to those in hell,
Well, they be saying:
Lord knows He tried.
Thanks for taking the time to read this. I hope you'll think about it. But always go back to the Bible. Nothing else should come first. If what I'm saying really doesn't align with Scripture, I want to know, so please let me know.
In my first paragraph, I didn't mean that "all men" referred to Gentiles, but that when Paul said that to the Gentiles to whom he was first and foremostly writing, he meant that because of Jesus, now even the Gentiles can be saved. All men refers to "every people, language, tongue, and nation." Sorry if I wasn't clear about that.
I do not believe that we choose to be saved. I believe in total depravity as put forward in Romans 3 (and also Psalm 14) which says that no one seeks God, no one is good, there is none righteous. Therefore, we can't do anything to get ourselves saved. That would mean that the credit for our salvation would partially go to us. No, I believe that it is only by God's grace that we are saved, through faith. And we can't even have faith by ourselves; the Holy Spirit works faith in us, so that we are in a place to be saved. When God gives us faith by His grace (which we don't deserve in the least bit), we are in a place to believe the decrees and claims of God as put forth in Scripture, and then we act on that by repenting of our sin, and trusting in the finished work of Christ on the cross for salvation. We don't repent of our own power, but by the power of the Holy Spirit, when God regenerates us (gives us new birth), and we are continually sanctified (made holy, set apart from the world), and given the ability to live for God, taking up our crosses daily and following in Christ's footsteps.
Okay...now that I've gotten that cleared up, I also believe that God does save because of His mercy. If He wasn't merciful, Adam and Eve would have been in Hell at the fall. So it is only by His wonderful mercy and grace that we live and are worked in by the Holy Spirit to receive salvation. Christ did, in a sense, come to make salvation possible, but only for those whom the Father chose to save. All the rest would never be saved, so He did not die for them. I understand your realm of thinking, but once you get this, it makes sense. God knew who would be His and who wouldn't. He knew who would reject the salvation message, and who would act on it (by His grace). Therefore, those individuals were who Jesus received punishment on behalf of. The fact that billions are in Hell and will go to Hell proves that Jesus didn't suffer for them! Because Hell is the wrath of God, and we, as Christians, have had that wrath satisfied because of Christ!
I do believe what Romans 5 says. Christ did die for the ungodly; He did die for us while we were still sinners. But he didn't die for the righteous. We don't see that anywhere in the Bible. We are the ungodly! We are sinners! We are miserable wretches in the eyes of God! "Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me!"
If Christ came to die for unbelievers, and they reject his death and sufferings, then He did fail. He came to save His people from their sins. Those in Hell haven't been saved from their sin. Therefore Christ didn't die for them!
I believe Christ did die for the OT believers. He didn't die for the OT wicked, but He did suffer for those who believed in the Messiah to come. How else could they have gotten to heaven? Even if all of their sacrifices had covered over every single sin they ever committed on this earth, they still have the problem of original sin. "In sin my mother conceived me." We are all born sinners before we even sin, as a result of the fall. No animal blood could ever cover over that! We are all born with sin in our "account." When Jesus lived a perfect life, and then God "made Him Who had no sin to be sin for us," an exchange was made. God takes Jesus' righteousness, and through faith, He credits it into the Christian's "account". This is imputation, The Great Exchange. Our sin for Christ's righteousness. Christ gets punished for all the sins that every believer would ever commit, and we are treated as if we had lived the spotless, perfect life that Christ did.
I do believe that Christ's death did away with sacrifices, and that was because He was the perfect Lamb, slain for our sin. In the Old Testament, when the Jews demonstrated faith in the Messiah to come, Whom they knew would pay for their sin, God justified them. As it says in Romans 4, "Abraham believed God, and it was accredited to him as righteousness." Therefore, when Jesus died, He officially justified the OT saints, and they were admitted into heaven, because their sins had been paid for.
I personally believe, as found in the parable in Luke 16, that the OT saints were kept in "paradise" until Jesus justified them, because they couldn't enter heaven to be in God's perfect presence until Jesus paid their ransom. But that is a weak part of my theology, and I don't have much Scripture to back it up, so I'd appreciate it if we don't get into an argument about that.
Thanks for the ability to have a debate! I never get this opportunity anywhere else to defend what exactly it is that I believe, because I don't know any people like you. So thank you, it's helped me a lot, and hopefully what I said will help you.