PHC - Clarification

[Amethystic]

"If you're truly saved you'll stop sinning" isn't a realistic expectation--after all, it doesn't take into account addictions, bad habits, mental illness, incorrect theological beliefs, and just plain ol' human nature. We sin, and we don't always repent for it; that doesn't necessarily mean we're not going to heaven, if we have an active relationship with the Lord, but it will put a barrier between us and our ability to follow God to our fullest potential.

But when you get saved God removes "plain ol' human nature" or the desire to sin. Bad habits and addictions are impossible to break alone but as Philippians 4:13 states "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."

"We sin and we don't always repent for it; that doesn't necessarily mean we're not going to heaven." Yes it does! Acts 3:19 "Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,"

Some of our carnal nature is curbed, but our human nature is most certainly not removed entirely. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak; our spirits belong to God and desire to please him, but the flesh wants to sin--it likes to sin. Yes, we're given a clean slate in God's book, but we still have to fight our human nature day by day. Our corruptibility won't disappear until we leave this world behind.

And yes, we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us, but that doesn't mean it's easy. Breaking an addiction is a battle, one that most people never overcome. Jesus made a way by dying on the cross, but with so many other spiritual forces trying to press down on us it's easy for people to lose heart and just give in. So yes, we should be overcoming these things in the Lord, but we also shouldn't turn our nose down at people with an addiction or who are in spiritual bondage and say that they're less of a Christian because they can't kick their problems. Often times people are trying the best they can.

Yes, but sin is sin whether you consciously know about it or not. God's law is written in a man's heart--murder is wrong whether your society says it's wrong or not, as is lying, cheating, and a whole bunch of other sins. Also, what about minor offenses like snarky put-downs or coarse joking? Most people, even Christians, indulge in those bad habits from time to time without repenting; will it keep them from going to heaven?

Again Acts 3:19 states "Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,". So yes you do have to repent.

That doesn't really answer the question, you know. If I've made snarky remarks at people my entire life and never specifically repented for it, either because I (i.e. the flesh) didn't want to or it simply didn't occur to me that I ought to, am I going to Hell?

[SoccerLOTR]

"If you're truly saved you'll stop sinning" isn't a realistic expectation--after all, it doesn't take into account addictions, bad habits, mental illness, incorrect theological beliefs, and just plain ol' human nature. We sin, and we don't always repent for it; that doesn't necessarily mean we're not going to heaven, if we have an active relationship with the Lord, but it will put a barrier between us and our ability to follow God to our fullest potential.

But when you get saved God removes "plain ol' human nature" or the desire to sin. Bad habits and addictions are impossible to break alone but as Philippians 4:13 states "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."

"We sin and we don't always repent for it; that doesn't necessarily mean we're not going to heaven." Yes it does! Acts 3:19 "Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,"

Some of our carnal nature is curbed, but our human nature is most certainly not removed entirely. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak; our spirits belong to God and desire to please him, but the flesh wants to sin--it likes to sin. Yes, we're given a clean slate in God's book, but we still have to fight our human nature day by day. Our corruptibility won't disappear until we leave this world behind.

And yes, we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us, but that doesn't mean it's easy. Breaking an addiction is a battle, one that most people never overcome. Jesus made a way by dying on the cross, but with so many other spiritual forces trying to press down on us it's easy for people to lose heart and just give in. So yes, we should be overcoming these things in the Lord, but we also shouldn't turn our nose down at people with an addiction or who are in spiritual bondage and say that they're less of a Christian because they can't kick their problems. Often times people are trying the best they can.

Agreed...No one listens to me on this, but Paul even says that he struggles with his sinful nature, doing what he does not want to do, even though his heart wants to follow God. Yes, God helps us through addictions and problems, but they still can and do exist, and we will continue to struggle against sinful nature until we are united with God and taken out of this world.

Yes, but sin is sin whether you consciously know about it or not. God's law is written in a man's heart--murder is wrong whether your society says it's wrong or not, as is lying, cheating, and a whole bunch of other sins. Also, what about minor offenses like snarky put-downs or coarse joking? Most people, even Christians, indulge in those bad habits from time to time without repenting; will it keep them from going to heaven?

Again Acts 3:19 states "Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,". So yes you do have to repent.

That doesn't really answer the question, you know. If I've made snarky remarks at people my entire life and never specifically repented for it, either because I (i.e. the flesh) didn't want to or it simply didn't occur to me that I ought to, am I going to Hell?

I couldn't begin to count the wrong things I've done that I haven't thought about until later, and little things like comments...I've apologized later for the bad attitude, but for each of the comments I haven't seen the need to. Is one big apology ok, or does it need to be a repentance for every word, even if I don't remember it at the time? If I forget one comment because it happened the day before, am I condemned because I can't remember it to repent? That's bordering on legalism--what Jesus condemned the pharisees for.
And I have to add--look at the verse in context. It looks from the passage like the people to whom Peter was speaking were Israelites who had not yet become Christians. Last thing we knew, they were condemning Jesus to die on the cross, now they're astounded at the healings and coming to believe that Jesus is who He said He was. So Peter is essentially saying "Repent! Turn from the ways of sin that you've followed all your lives and be forgiven. Change your life and follow God, and He'll restore you." Basically, Peter just told the crowd how to become Christians--he wasn't talking to Christians who had sinned, but rather non-believers who had yet to turn to God for His forgiveness and redemption.

[Amethystic]

Agreed...No one listens to me on this, but Paul even says that he struggles with his sinful nature, doing what he does not want to do, even though his heart wants to follow God. Yes, God helps us through addictions and problems, but they still can and do exist, and we will continue to struggle against sinful nature until we are united with God and taken out of this world.

Paul would've struggled with his humanness just like anyone else; granted, he had a better handle on things than most of us, but Paul definitely wasn't perfect. His argument with Barnabas would be a good example. They didn't exactly part on friendly terms.

[Knight Fisher]

Agreed...No one listens to me on this, but Paul even says that he struggles with his sinful nature, doing what he does not want to do, even though his heart wants to follow God. Yes, God helps us through addictions and problems, but they still can and do exist, and we will continue to struggle against sinful nature until we are united with God and taken out of this world.

Paul would've struggled with his humanness just like anyone else; granted, he had a better handle on things than most of us, but Paul definitely wasn't perfect. His argument with Barnabas would be a good example. They didn't exactly part on friendly terms.

Exactly 3-2 debate. God wants us to make every effort to stop sinning. But it Isn't going to happen. We are sinful from conception. (No kids aren't born innocent. And I can biblically prove it.) We can't be perfect. And that's why Jesus was perfect for us.

[The Top Crusader]

But when you get saved God removes "plain ol' human nature" or the desire to sin.

Huh. He forgot to remove mine. Maybe I should put it out by the road with a big FREE sign on it and some dude in a pickup will take it.

[Amethystic]

Agreed...No one listens to me on this, but Paul even says that he struggles with his sinful nature, doing what he does not want to do, even though his heart wants to follow God. Yes, God helps us through addictions and problems, but they still can and do exist, and we will continue to struggle against sinful nature until we are united with God and taken out of this world.

Paul would've struggled with his humanness just like anyone else; granted, he had a better handle on things than most of us, but Paul definitely wasn't perfect. His argument with Barnabas would be a good example. They didn't exactly part on friendly terms.

Exactly 3-2 debate. God wants us to make every effort to stop sinning. But it Isn't going to happen. We are sinful from conception. (No kids aren't born innocent. And I can biblically prove it.) We can't be perfect. And that's why Jesus was perfect for us.

Forget biblically; I think most parents would agree with you.

[Termite]

Quickly aside, on the baby thing: yes, we are all born with it in us, but you can't condemn a baby until they're old enough to learn between right and wrong... So yes, babies are 'innocent' when born. It's when they're older that the accountability question comes in... but that's a discussion for another time, I think.

Wooton, you didn't answer my first question.

"We sin and we don't always repent for it; that doesn't necessarily mean we're not going to heaven." Yes it does!

Let's say I get mad at someone, throw something at them, or push them and they fall and seriously hurt their head. I'm mad and unrepentent, and then as I'm driving home fuming I die in a car crash. Do I go to Hell or not? Don't talk in circles, just give me a simple, biblical answer.

[odysseyfan1]

First off I'd like to thank odysseyfan1 for starting this topic. Because I thought he was wrong, it inspired me to join. (Not kidding.)

So you do you still think I'm wrong? And no, I don't agree with that. We don't sin every minute of our existence. How is that even possible for a Christian?

Or maybe you were exactly like them... Hate to tell ya, but before the 1900s there were still multiple denominations...

Yeah, I know. But they did believe like us. Just saying...

To answer your question about the tribal person. If he walks in as much light that is available to him then no it is not wrong. But for someone who has access to a Bible or scripture it is wrong.

Amen! Preach it, brother!

[Steve]

Or maybe you were exactly like them... Hate to tell ya, but before the 1900s there were still multiple denominations...

Yeah, I know. But they did believe like us. Just saying...

Uh, well that doesn't work. Because if they beleived like you, they wouldn't be a different denomination.

[American Eagle]

First off I'd like to thank odysseyfan1 for starting this topic. Because I thought he was wrong, it inspired me to join. (Not kidding.)

So you do you still think I'm wrong? And no, I don't agree with that. We don't sin every minute of our existence. How is that even possible for a Christian?

In the last minute, has everything you have thought, said and done been entirely for the glory of God? Are you following his will 100% without blemish? Is your every motive inspired by the Holy Spirit? There are so many sins we commit in omission.

[Knight Fisher]

Thank you ae That is what I meant.

[American Eagle]

Thank you ae That is what I meant.

I'm sorry for giving my opinion.

What did you mean, then?

[Knight Fisher]

No I was rolling my eyes at the ae part. I think thats all silly. I thought you were right.

[American Eagle]

I thought you said, "That is [not] what I meant." Wow, then I totally misread you. Thanks for explaining.

[The Top Crusader]

I never know how to interpret the rolling eyes dude.

[Dr. Watson]

I once heard a guy say that if sin were the color blue, we would be colored blue all over and surrounded by a constant blue mist and every time we spoke blue would come out of our mouth.

An interesting thought, and one that I think is accurate. We have a very low view of God's demand for holiness and what holiness means if we think we can be sinless during this life. Even as Christians, we do not "do everything to the glory of God" like the Scriptures command. We have no real concept of what bringing every thought, word, and action into the obedience of Christ.

The Bible backs this up: He who says he has no sin is a liar and the truth is not in him.


I am very concerned with the view that sinlessness can be attained here on earth and that Christians don't sin and that we won't go to heaven if we sin. That absolutely destroys the gospel! Why? Because it is not our efforts that saves us! How are we righteous in God's eyes? The righteousness of Jesus Christ is applied to us! That is the doctrine of justification.

I will be in heaven not because of my own sinlessness but because Jesus Christ has draped His righteousness over me.

[odysseyfan1]

Me, and a friend (who believes in eternal security) were talking about this yesterday. What an interesting coincidence. Or is it?

Consider these verses:

1st John 1:6-7: "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
2:1: "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"
and verse 3 of the same chapter: " And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments."
2:29: " If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him."
5:17-19: "All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death."
1Jn 5:18 "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."
1Jn 5:19 "And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness."

These are just a few of the many verses against sin.

"He who says he has no sin is a liar and the truth is not in him."
This is talking to sinners, and new converts. It's saying that our good works can't save us. We do have sin in our heart, but when God comes inside, he takes away that sin.

Now obviously we'll make mistakes. We may tell a lie, or show a wrong attitude, but (consider 1st John 2:1) then we confess our sins, and our lawyer (the father) will take those away.

My friend said that he told a lie that day, but he still knew he was going to Heaven. He said, if you kill someone you're not a Christian (meaning "Christ-like") but you will still go to Heaven. I'm sorry but that is quite wrong, for it is quite obvious, that only Christians will be in Heaven.

I am very sorry if I failed to answer somebody's question. It's becoming increasingly difficult to update without having regular internet access. So just remind me, and I'll glad to answer.

[SoccerLOTR]

Now obviously we'll make mistakes. We may tell a lie, or show a wrong attitude, but (consider 1st John 2:1) then we confess our sins, and our lawyer (the father) will take those away.

I am very sorry if I failed to answer somebody's question. It's becoming increasingly difficult to update without having regular internet access. So just remind me, and I'll glad to answer.

Ok, this is what I am reminding you of:

"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". I'm confused because both you and odysseyfan1 have made statements like this. Must we ask specific forgiveness for every sin and if we miss one we won't go to heaven?

I don't believe in Calvinism. You can't sin and go to Heaven. Sure people will make mistakes once in a while, but they need to ask forgiveness and move on.

...I do not get this. We need to ask forgiveness for "mistakes". But mistakes do not = sins? How can you say that mistakes are not sins? My point is that we are human. We make mistakes (SIN), but we do not KEEP sinning once we are convicted of it. Yes, if we directly defy God over and over again with no repentance, than no, we won't go to heaven. But if we make the effort to do what is right and to stay in communion with God, but sometimes mess up and disobey--the relationship is not altogether ruined. It is the attitude of the heart and the relationship with God that matters. you cannot have a good relationship with God if you abandon Him for the pleasures of the world, and therefore, you are no longer a Christian if you choose to leave God. But if you love God and seek to know Him, and in loving Him, seek to obey Him, you're not gonna automatically go to hell when you break a rule. Like Top said--Moses had a good relationship with God--then disobeyed God and was punished for his disobedience. Did he go on and continue doing this because he didn't care about his relationship with God? No! he changed and once again sought to follow God, and God forgave him, and they still had a relationship--though the punishment still stood. It's similar to human relationships...for example, have I disobeyed my mom? Yup. Did I do it with malice or disregard for her? No. Did I get punished? Yup. Did I keep doing it? No. Is our relationship ruined because I disobeyed her on those few occasions? No. I still have a great relationship with her, despite my inability to always be a perfect child.

And just FYI, that's not quite what Calvinism is...they'd say that the person was just never saved in the first place.

[Dr. Watson]

So odysseyfan, do you think you sin, or do you think you are sinless?

[Knight Fisher]

So odysseyfan, do you think you sin, or do you think you are sinless?

Oooh, good question. But your very existence is sinful odysseyfan. Because you are not perfect, you are sinful. Right? So do you have no bad thoughts whatsoever?