Please Clarify First (Split Discussion)

[Blitz]

What are some things that changed under the Emperors?

The pope became head of the church. Paying the church became the way to go heaven. The Church got so much power the emperors came back begging the church if the pope excommunicated them at least most. The Church leaders became rich and vain. And the Church killed people who didn't agree.

[John Chrysostom]

I agree that the Pope as the head of the church and the paying for absolution of sin are bad changes, those are more recent than the Emperors supporting the Church. Constantine stopped the persecution of Christians in 313 it wasn't until 1054 that the Eastern and Western churches split precisely because of the Pope and the Filoque.

Some church leaders have always been and always will be rich and vain, to say this is an outcome of the Roman Emperors is silly.

Hmm that is an interesting point, when did Christian leaders begin killing people for not agreeing with them? I would be interested to know when that started.

[Blitz]

During the Middle Ages itself. Few and far in between though. More common around the protestant reformation did they start killing. Not that many but some were wanted dead like Martin Luther but escaped. Tyndale wasn't that fortunate.

[John Chrysostom]

Tyndale was killed in 1536, Constantine first supported the Church in 313. I think 1,223 years is a bit long for cause and effect.

[Blitz]

A not too long. And in the begin because the emperor supported Christianity more people started joining though they weren't Christians. Thus the Church began to incorporate more and more pagan ideas. And there were some people when the Emperors were invading that they just slaughtered because they weren't 'Christians'. Take the Jews for example.

[jasonjannajerryjohn]

Sooo... how much do you know about what happened in the year 790 than and how much influence has it had on your religious beliefs? If that's not a very long time for cause and effect.

You do realize that Christians, and indeed most religious groups, have killed people who didn't agree with them whenever they had political power. It's an inevitable product of mixing church and state.

[Blitz]

Thus the reason I don't agree with the Church interfering with the government and the other way around. I do not believe religion must be completely separated from the government.

[John Chrysostom]

I agree the Jewish people have been persecuted by the church.

What pagen rituals were added?

[Blitz]

Not completely pagan but the stained glass windows. The statues used in catholic churches. The monks chanting instead of singing came from various religions.

[Jehoshaphat]

Stained glass windows are not pagan, I do not know where you got that from, stained glass windows are their because most people couldn't read so they told the stroy through the pictures, and at first everything was just spoken, over time it gradually became a song and was finally written down when Pope Gregory ordered the monasteries to write it. Chant was the first type of religious music.

[Blitz]

Naw it carried over it may be good I personally like them I just stated they carried over.

[John Chrysostom]

Chanting is a form of singing the Jewish people chanted as well. So besides stained glass, which you like, and statues, which I can see your point on, are there any other pagen elements? Cause those seem pretty minor.

[jasonjannajerryjohn]

Christmas and Easter were "pagan" before they were Christianized. Of course they weren't called Christmas and Easter yet.

Also, I find that word "pagan" to be derogatory. It essentially means religion that's not mine. Or religion that was around before Christianity took root. It's also used so many times to mean something bad, so there's that. It's like racism, but with religion. And therefore more socially acceptable.

[Sherlock]

Well, I mean, if you think about it, CCM carries over "pagan elements" of the current cultural music trends. So, to some extent, every church continues to be influenced by the environment in which it is placed. Latin was the lingua franca of the Roman Catholic Church because of its location. Churches were usually constructed in the style of the location in which they existed and, while they shared certain features, a Renaissance-style Cathedral is quite distinguishable from a Spanish Mission style Cathedral. To say that any tradition can exist in a society totally uninfluenced by the local culture is, I think, a tad naive.

As for pagan, I'm not sure that I agree the term is derogatory as there are many people who identify themselves as pagans. Typically it does not refer to just any foreign religion or a lack of religion, but a specific set of beliefs. I think many people mistakenly conflate "pagan" with "no religion" which is not accurate.

[jasonjannajerryjohn]

I've never heard the word "pagan" used in place of "no religion." If people want to call themselves that, that's fine. But I've heard the word more often used to essentially mean "not my religion" or "religion before Christianity made things better." Much how "barbarian" essentially means "not me." Hence why I find it derogatory.

This is true. Religion and culture do not exist in a vacuum, they are influenced by the world around them.

[bookworm]

Paying the church became the way to go heaven.

On that part you are absolutely correct; paying for forgiveness is wrong. (And impossible.) However as I understand it, that idea was not supported by the Catholic church itself, it was propagated by misguided individuals in the church and later condemned.
I know there are several instances in history where people did or taught things in the name of the Catholic church, and I’m sure other religions as well, that in actuality were completely contrary to said church’s teachings. It’s unfortunate, because that’s how many misconceptions arise, as Jehoshaphat referenced in his original post. It makes it understandably confusing to know what the religion truly believes and what some people only claim it does.

[Blitz]

Ahem, I know alot of Catholics and they still believe in salvation through works. And remember Galileo, who got himself jailed for speaking something contrary to what the Catholic Church believed?

[jasonjannajerryjohn]

Ahem, remember John Scopes, who got himself put on trial for teaching evolution in a public school back in the 1920s? And you better believe the Catholics had very little to do with that, this was in Tennessee.

[Jehoshaphat]

Galileo was jailed because he refused to present his theory as a theory. He presented it as a fact when it was not proven.

[John Chrysostom]

I know plenty of legalistic Protestants and they believe you have to follow lots of rules to be saved. I can make broad generalizations about people too.